The State of the Supergirl Fandom

Very well put! Although I continue to take issue with the whole 'agenda' thing. Because while you make an excellent point of what agenda could possibly mean, it has become evident that within the SG shipping fandom 'agenda' is almost always in reference to the idea that SC shippers are trying to push a f/f couple on us. 'Agenda' holds so much negative connotation and when brought up in discussions/arguments of a f/f ship it becomes grossly homophobic.

Well I have explained on how I understand agenda and I intend to keep using it as that. To me agenda (though I do think that it gets overused) in the end about a deeply dishonest way of arguing.

Like saying one thing, while having a different true intention. That is not exclusive to gay fans. This very much exists among hereto fans as well.

Let's say there is a couple A & B and a rival couple B & C. Such dishonest behavior would be trying to trash the actor or actress C in the hope that they will get fired or leave because the fans of A & B want C out of their hair or want the fans out of their hair. Or they might even start praising C and go on about how him or her should find a new job elsewhere, but they don't actually care about C, they really just want their piece for A & B. Or they might suddenly support a pairing between C & D, not because they actually like C &D (the lines there are often fluid) but because it is convenient for A & B.

Trashing all other couples and characters to make your couple A & B look good in comparison. Trying to scare people off shipping any other couple, just so you can use "See, nobody likes them" as an argument as to why the show should go with your couple.

These are all things I've seen plenty of in fandoms where there were only hereto couples involved (Vampire Diaries springs to mind).

And it's just a really obnoxious attitude. Because it means you constantly feel like the person you are talking to is being dishonest or like they constantly view everything as "political" in the sense of how they can make the best argument about how the other side is inferior and bad and horrible and how that totally means they couple is best and should be done or get all the screentime.

I understand your point, I do. But that doesn't really seem to fit the bill here, at least not to me. I don't see much of other ships being praised/lorded over others. I see a great deal of people tearing down the karamel relationship on it's own.

To me agenda (though I do think that it gets overused) in the end about a deeply dishonest way of arguing.

In the case of this shipdom, people think that the only reason for the dislike of Mon-El is that he is in the way of their ship. But I think we've seen that this isn't always true. People are crying 'agenda' when they're under the impression that his dislike is due to shipping. It's under these circumstances that agenda becomes synonymous with the 'gay' agenda and that in and of itself is an entirely problematic way of thinking.

Ahh see now you're just twisting this. The 'triggers' here are actions and words, don't try to trivialize this.

It does not matter if the trigger is hat or a word like "you look so hot, baby" or an action like putting an arm on somebody's shoulder from behind.

Neither the hat nor the words nor the action was there with the intent to trigger. And it's about accepting that those hats or actions or words have alternative explanations.

To me it's pretty clear that neither Mon-El or Alex or Lena (remember how she and Jack JOKED about the fact that Lena used to throw a microscope at his head during a fight?) are meant to be written as abusive people and hence they also won't be written and end up as abusive people. So to call them abusive is to me in the end a misnomer.

I'm talking about people who bring up their issues with the show, but then are shut down by others.

Everybody can bring up issues with the show. The problems are always just the people who don't take no for an answer. And especially on something based on deeply personal experience, you just can't expect every viewer to share the same position. And somebody saying "I hear you, but that is just not my experience, I just don't feel the same way" is something that just has a high likelihood of happening.

I didn't mean to imply that a 'trigger' for some people is a 'trigger' for all. But it is a reality to those people, it is their fact and we can't just ignore that because it's not ours.

Of course we can. We are not friends. We and the show are not friends. The show can't make every person who will ever watch it happy and they can't account for every personal issue any of their million plus viewers might have.

Obviously the writers' intentions weren't to create an abusive character (at least I hope it wasn't). But fact of the matter is that Mon-El is coming off as such to many fans and it's creating so much ridiculous chaos in the fandom. I don't condone all the hateful attacks on the cast/writers, but I can understand why those fans are pissed. I believe they're voices (when respectful) should be heard and not immediately shut down by being told they're overreacting or are projecting.

I can understand having an instinctive reaction. But I also think that then they also have to accept that that is just not how the show is going to go down. Mon-El most likely isn't going to turn into an abuser just because he had a scene that reminded somebody of something.

If a person saw Supergirl the tv show, got turned off by a scene and decided to never watch it again they would have my condolences. But if seems like the people are staying around to defend and obsess over their ship and trying to get the show to make their ship happen, it seems like they are just using this as an excuse to get what they want in a shipper sense.

If for example an actor and his portrayal consistently rubs you the wrong way in a deeply personal way, then I'm sorry, the best solution really is to stop watching. If you can't accept the interpretation of the show, that Kara and Mon-El have had as far as the writers are concerned some deep genuine feelings for each other, again, to me that's time to move on. I've personally moved on from many shows because I found a certain development was too unrealistic and unpleasant.

Neither the hat nor the words nor the action was there with the intent to trigger. And it's about accepting that those hats or actions or words have alternative explanations.

I've already agreed that the intent obviously isn't there. And I agree, there are alternative explanations, one of which (abusive relationship traits) is being blasted by 'fans' right now.

To me it's pretty clear that neither Mon-El or Alex or Lena (remember how she and Jack JOKED about the fact that Lena used to throw a microscope at his head during a fight?) are meant to be written as abusive people and hence they also won't be written and end up as abusive people. So to call them abusive is to me in the end a misnomer.

Yeah I'm with you on that, I don't believe it was ever anyone's intention to write these characters as abusive. I don't see them as such. But I can see why some have taken issue with the relationship as it regretfully presents initial sings of emotional abuse. Again, that obviously wasn't the intent but it is becoming problematic that this is how people are interpreting it.

I didn't mean to imply that a 'trigger' for some people is a 'trigger' for all. But it is a reality to those people, it is their fact and we can't just ignore that because it's not ours.

Of course we can. We are not friends. We and the show are not friends. The show can't make every person who will ever watch it happy and they can't account for every personal issue any of their million plus viewers might have.

I wasn't insinuating that any of us or the show cater to those who cry foul. My point is that we can't pretend as if this stuff isn't happening; that there aren't people genuinely upset over one of their favorite tv shows. We can (and should) acknowledge things like this, doesn't mean we have to change anything.

But if seems like the people are staying around to defend and obsess over their ship and trying to get the show to make their ship happen, it seems like they are just using this as an excuse to get what they want in a shipper sense.

You fail to realize that people voicing their frustrations aren't all shippers. You've now turned the 'agenda' into a shipping thing which quickly falls into the 'gay' agenda issue. Take a look into the arguments on social media; majority of fans are in favor of Kara having no relationship.

I would suggest simply shipping your ship of choice, but please do so without dragging other aspects of the show. dont disparage, bully or harass actors, writers or other fans.

We tend to forget that happiness doesn't come as a result of getting something we don't have, but of appreciating what we do have.

one of which (abusive relationship traits)

But that's the problem. Some people not accepting that it's just one option, one that isn't shared by the writers. But instead people acting like that's the only right and true interpretation that everybody must share and if they don't share it they are wrong.

Again, that obviously wasn't the intent but it is becoming problematic that this is how people are interpreting it.

And I think it's problematic if people are incapable of moving on from an interpretation they got stuck on and act like they try to force it as the only one and true interpretation. And again, the fact that they lock on on just one relationship and just one character rather than having a fair look at how a variety of characters on the show have acted with each other (again Lena and Jack joking about how she threw a hard object at him during a fight, Mon-El talking about how he expects to be beaten up as punishment during training by Kara and her agreeing with that, Alex taking Kara to the kryptonite room and beating her to teach her a lesson about being more careful in the field) makes it really hard to buy that they really have a genuine interest in how relationships are portrayed on tv or on Supergirl in particular. And if at the same time they ferociously lobby for a ship of their choice AND also refuse to accept if the situation has changed (like: Mon-El used to want to protect Kara even if she didn't want it, to him taking her orders even if it puts her into danger, or Mon-El doubting Kara's heroism to Mon-El praising Kara's heroism over and over) to makes it even harder to truly get into their arguments.

You fail to realize that people voicing their frustrations aren't all shippers. You've now turned the 'agenda' into a shipping thing which quickly falls into the 'gay' agenda issue.

No I'm saying those fans who latch on to this argument AND then turn around and ferociously ship something come across like that (again, zeroing in on one character, rather than giving a fair assessment of the actions of other characters too), respectively use it as part of their laundry list shipper arguments to explain to the world why their ship is so much better and how everybody shipping something else is wrong and immoral.

There is plenty of shippers who don't use these arguments and there are people who use those arguments and aren't shippers.

For everybody who isn't a shipper but shares those arguments, my response would always be, either consider that the show is going with a different interpretation and story or if you can't overcome this apprehension, watch something that doesn't upset you.

Well, the cast, aside from Mehcad, is probably done with social media for a while. And I don't blame them. The comments they've gotten are 1000x worse than anything they actually did or said.

Poor Melissa. She finally starts to come out of her shell, on social media, after being pretty much silent for 2 seasons, and these jerks rip her apart. I honestly wish people could disable comments on twitter and instagram.

Again, that obviously wasn't the intent but it is becoming problematic that this is how people are interpreting it.

And I think it's problematic if people are incapable of moving on from an interpretation they got stuck on and act like they try to force it as the only one and true interpretation. And again, the fact that they lock on on just one relationship and just one character rather than having a fair look at how a variety of characters on the show have acted with each other (again Lena and Jack joking about how she threw a hard object at him a fight, Mon-El talking about how he expects to be beaten up as punishment during training by Kara and her agreeing with that, Alex taking Kara to the kryptonite room and beating her to teach her a lesson about being more careful in the field) makes it really hard to buy that they really have a genuine interest in how relationships are portrayed on tv or on Supergirl in particular. And if at the same time they ferociously lobby for a ship of their choice AND also refuse to accept if the situation has changed (like: Mon-El used to want to protect Kara even if she didn't want it, to him taking her orders even if it puts her into danger, or Mon-El doubting Kara's heroism to Mon-El praising Kara's heroism over and over) to makes it even harder to truly get into their arguments.

But the big difference in all of these relationships is that they aren't being touted as the main relationship. Jack/Lena were barely given anything. Alex/Kara have shown how intense their relationship is, and those scenes aren't shown with quirky music in the background (like the DEO fight scene between Kara/Mon-El), they're meant to be serious and are shown as such. The writers have a bad habit of making light of the questionably problematic scenes between Kara and Mon-El; they shouldn't.

There is plenty of shippers who don't use these arguments and there are people who use those arguments and aren't shippers.

For everybody who isn't a shipper but shares those arguments, my response would always be, either consider that the show is going with a different interpretation and story or if you can't overcome this apprehension, watch something that doesn't upset you.

The sentence I bolded really hit the nail on the head! I pretty much agree with you here. I just find it unfortunate for those who can no longer enjoy a show that once brought them joy.

Actually 9-10 of those are in fact SC shippers. Its all hate for a selfish agenda to push on to the show. Its funny they call Kara and Mon-El toxic when there is nothing toxic about it. But to force 2 girls together the writers has said multiple times on the show that they are straight is definitely toxic.

I don't know what your deal is starlord, but you have a nasty habit of stating things like facts. "Actually 9-10 of those are in fact SC shippers" what the heck kind of statement is that? Are you out there polling fans? Maybe the fans you've interacted with are SC shippers but that doesn't mean you can make blanket statements like that.

You don't find them toxic, others do. That doesn't make you right and them wrong or them right and you wrong. How do you not get that? I think we can all agree that not everyone shares the same opinions, and opinions aren't wrong or right.

And please let's refrain from the lgbt stuff. That's a whole other can of worms that I believe none of us should open.

From my experience its pretty much all SC shippers. Rahul said it best, Kevin Smith also. The SDCC moderator as well. Thalolli and others made it clear. When they only see something wrong with him and not the other relationship or characters its a clear agenda. Thalolli and evrafter listed these wrongs here.

Exactly, from your experience. So why are you constantly making blanket statements?

And we've already gone over all the stuff you point out, you're just bringing it up again to drive home a point we've already accepted. I don't understand your line of thinking; you seem to ignore anything negative about (I'm assuming) your favorite character and ship. You want others to take your truth and accept is as their own, but then get huffy when others want you to do the same.

Yes, Thalolli and evrafter made some great points. But what you fail to grasp is that the negativity here isn't just from one part of the shipdom. Yes some SC shippers take things too far, but so do some KM shippers (there are posts in this thread listing the things they have done). The fact that you refuse to accept that is baffling to me. How blinded can a person be?

All I'm asking is that you not generalize/use blanket statements. You have a tendency to do it and it's just extremely frustrating.

There are plenty of accounts attacking characters; accounts attacking Mon-El, Maggie, Lena and so on. Characters getting hate is nothing new, and that's not our problem in the shipdom. People are allowed to hate all they like on a character, the problem is when people take their hate for a character and place it on real people. I think every actor has gotten hate at one point or another, but the three who seem to take the brunt of it are Chris, Floriana and Katie. I've seen people wishing death on all three of them..what kind of people do that? I'll tell you, people who can't differentiate between fiction and non-fiction.

No problem, Jordan860 is not a SC shipper and doesn't like Mon-El. I'm not a shipper and I don't like Mon-El (or Maggie for that matter). I remember VeeJer expressing their dislike for Mon-El and they're not a shipper either. There are people out there who don't like him and aren't SC shippers, we're just not as vocal/crazy about it as some of those SC shippers. Just because you don't see us doesn't mean we're not here.

I am Sorry if you see it like this. Never was my intention.

My favorite is Kara/Supergirl actually. But if you can find Where karamels write "#KillLena ect to writers on Twitter or create tumblr and Twitter accounts dedicated to just hating on Lena or others. Then be my guest. Would definitely say they are SC shippers seen their replies and writing things like "Kara is now free from the abuser to be with Lena"

But the big difference in all of these relationships is that they aren't being touted as the main relationship. Jack/Lena were barely given anything. Alex/Kara have shown how intense their relationship is, and those scenes aren't shown with quirky music in the background (like the DEO fight scene between Kara/Mon-El), they're meant to be serious and are shown as such. The writers have a bad habit of making light of the questionably problematic scenes between Kara and Mon-El; they shouldn't.

See, I deeply, deeply, disagree with that. The Jack/Lena scene was absolutely played out as very light hearted as well, as were a variety of scenes where Kara was "threatening" Mon-El with physical violence. And yet, it's only Mon-El that gets called toxic and an abuser by some. Directly, him the character. Not "the writing was too lighthearted in that scene, they shouldn't do that anymore in future scenes" but "Mon-El is evil and that's why he needs to leave and he is irredeemable". But again, by the same standard, Lena, who according to the show throw a hard object at her lover during a fight is not considered abusive and irreemable. Even though this is something that is part of her character and her history. If people assure me that Mon-El is evil and could never be a good guy, why should I believe that Lena could ever be a good guy then?

A lot of people use these scenes to lay complaint at the character. They judge the character and even worse they lay final judgement at the character. They don't accept any alternative interpretations and they also don't accept if the show moves on from that.

And no, the show hasn't at this point seriously adressed just how dark Alex sometimes gets. Alex was frequently shown drinking in ways that made her seem like an alcoholic, she has many times brutalized unarmed suspects (which was also often played for laughs), even ones who were already handcuffed, she has lied to Kara for years and used to shame Kara into hiding her powers (for Kara's own protection of course).

If we applied real life standards to Alex, Alex would be a horrible person. Picture the scene between Alex and Kara where Alex teaches Kara about fighting better as a father doing that with a son to "toughen him up". Would we really be rooting for them to hug it out and have cute sister moments at the end or would we be rooting for Kara to distance herself from that person?

I don't think that just because Kara and Mon-El traded kisses and somehow that translates to "status" in the mind of some people, that justifies why this character is the only character who should have those over the top harsh "realistic" standards applied to them when all other characters, even those who are being shipped romantically don't have those standards applied to them.

I don't consider myself a hardcore Mon-El fan. I like him well enough. But the way some of those anti-fans voice their dislike is just ridiculous to me. To me there are many complaints against Mon-El that to me have a lot more validity, like being boring or having too much screentime. So the way that some people exist that just obsess over this one angle which to me just doesn't have sufficient merit is just way more unsettling to me than anything I've ever seen on Supergirl.

The sentence I bolded really hit the nail on the head! I pretty much agree with you here. I just find it unfortunate for those who can no longer enjoy a show that once brought them joy.

But you can't make everybody happy. Kill off Mon-El, you make some people happy, you make others unhappy. Make Alex gay, you make some people happy, and others unhappy. You will never make all people in the world happy and I don't see what point there is to spend that much energy to make sure that every person in the universe is 100% happy with a fictional tv show.

I really enjoy Supergirl the show, I also like her in comics. If the show went into a direction I didn't like I would just bow out though.

People who don't have "agenda", if they don't like something, most of them move on and find something else. Supergirl is a lovely show, but there are many other shows out there, especially if you consider all the shows from the past like Buffy or Xena or Wonderwoman who are available via streaming or DVD, or various DC cartoon shows. Maybe if they took a breather and then came back they would realize that the things they thought were so horrible are a lot less severe than they initially seemed. Sometimes a bit of distance makes the heart grow fonder.

And if people have serious psychological backstory problems then we can't fix them. The show can't fix them. They are not their psychiatrists, the show are not their psychiatrists, the actors are not their psychiatrists. Of course it's a pity for every person who leaves, but you can't account for every potential version of preferences. And I don't see what the point is in obsessing over them. 12 Million people watched the first episode of Supergirl. Many of them didn't even watch the second episode. Only about half of them watched the season 1 finale, all before Mon-El was a character. Should we obsess over winning back every single one of them too? If the show would get more ratings if Melissa took her shirt off, or if they made Alex date men, should the show do that?

Like I said, if that person was a personal friend who asked you for a favor to act differently, of course you would do that if you are a nice person. But as a person you normally have a limited amount of friends and hence probably a limited amount of friends with traumatic backgrounds who make special requests of you. That just isn't the case on a tv show. And to me it just makes no sense to eternally obsess over those people. If a scene traumatized them, maybe they really should stop watching. Or take a break and come back with some distance.

No show is ever going to make everybody happy. Some people want more action, othes want more romance or more characters having deep talks. Some people want more characters from the comics books, others don't care. There will always be as many different tastes and as many personal stories as people watching.

And yeah, I'm also quite sick about talking about this, but the reason why I keep doing it is because I keep coming across people who say stuff that just strikes me as deeply unfair.

Nope, I'm a karolsen. I posted about it a while ago; if you dig through the forum you can find the post.

Holy crap Kelly that was an excellent breakdown of the groups within this fandom!

Dude...right on, Kelly! I couldn't have said it better, myself!

Thank you Kelly.....very well said!!

Aaaand that's a mic drop from Kelly ?

Kelly, I don't necessarily agree with all of it but it is a very detailed description of what you think makes up the Supergirl fandom.

It is from what Ive read and seen on different sites, twitter and tumblr....over the past 5 months ...

"That's fair, you're right. Let me rephrase: You do not get to tell us that we should 'see both sides' when Jeremy and Melissa and others literally laughed at a lesbian ship."

Again, Jordan... I never told "y'all," not even insinuated y'all had to even look at the other side. In fact, I wasn't even addressing you. Heck, I wasn't even speaking to anyone in plarticular. I was simply saying I wasn't fully understanding why there was controversy afoot....that I might be seeing something different in what "occurred."

And here is an other example of what we non-shippers have been exhausted about....one can't even make a comment these days that might have a different perspective without being jumped.

I saw foul, vile comments starting RIGHT at the get go this morning coming from angry Katie fans, simply because SHE wasn't sitting on this couch, or because she was sitting in that 2nd row. Example: "Why didn' t you sit our queen on the couch, you dumb f...." Y'all can fill in the rest.

I truly don't think Jeremy Jordan, who's gay niece he fought for last summer to get her out of a so-called "rehabilitation" program," was making fun of SuperCorp because it's an LGBTQ shipdom.

did you guys see the entire interview? did you see the part where Jeremy says sorry? people arent perfect and sometimes make mistakes. is he to be damned anyway or is he forgiven?

People speak of 'intentions' as if that's an excuse. Yes, they likely didn't intend to disrespect wlw viewers, but they did. Their actions were likely a direct result of those bad shippers, but yet it affected so many more people than said shippers. That's why there's such an outrage over it.