Everything Waco Thread

Looking forward to watching this. I had to double-check that my cable company actually carries this network. Since they don't carry the CW, I can't take anything for granted with them. And, yep! They do, so all is good.

I noticed that Melissa is doing a great deal of promotion this week for it. It made me wonder if, allowing her this time off to spend on promotion was a contributing factor to the delay in Supergirl. Not THE only factor, just one that, when added with other issues, made them decide it might be better to have a break in February.

Either way, I'm thankful that she works for a company that is supportive in letting her continue to spread her acting wings.

First hour was kind of slow, but most docu-dramas are like that so I wasn't really surprised. However, the acting is excellent....to me it was the FBI dude (not the negotiator) that was the slime ball.

I thought this was a really interesting start to the series. I liked that they gave us the scenes with Ruby Ridge as a precursor to Waco to help provide some background that, I'm guessing, will be an influence in the actions the FBI, ATF and the Waco residents going forward. I can't remember all of the details of Waco and I had actually forgotten about Ruby Ridge until they showed it. But, I can recall an atmosphere that depicted the Waco residents as just plain crazy. So, seeing the events at Ruby Ridge and the questioning of the FBI behavior by the FBI negotiator is a real eye-opener for me.

I was doing a little more reading on Koresh and the Branch Davidians and the way the two entities merged and developed was really fascinating. I would highly recommend reading on it, if one has the time and inclination to do so.

Him, too. But the slime ball comment was more directed to Koresh "accepting" the "burden" to take on the roll of sole reproducer. Lol

Poor guy. Such a sacrifice on his part

Most of what you see in the movie as far as what was happening INSIDE the compound before and during the seige is from Tibodeaux's book....he is the young guy that Koresh brought in...the drummer from the bar.

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Yes, I'm not condoning what they did, just explaining how easy it is to become manipulated into believing or acting in a way that is questionable.

Ive heard so many conflicted stories on that David himself strongly denied it as did other Davidians other than the 4 who left [their a story in itslef]In fact one of the accusers admitted he lied about it coz he wanted David's position and thought of himself as a Phrophet

I don't know that David would be a very reliable source. But, based on the ages of the young women and the children, if nothing else, there had to be child abuse and/or statutory rape involved. It would be very easy to prove one way or another if they had the DNA of the children involved.

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Yes, I'm not condoning what they did, just explaining how easy it is to become manipulated into believing or acting in a way that is questionable.

Ive heard so many conflicted stories on that David himself strongly denied it as did other Davidians other than the 4 who left [their a story in itslef]In fact one of the accusers admitted he lied about it coz he wanted David's position and thought of himself as a Phrophet

I don't know that David would be a very reliable source. But, based on the ages of the young women and the children, if nothing else, there had to be child abuse and/or statutory rape involved. It would be very easy to prove one way or another if they had the DNA of the children involved.

This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies

The fact that Rachel married at 14 and her sister had a child at 14 would be enough to be concerning to child and protective services. (There's a certain judge who just ran for the US Senate that has the distinction of being labeled a child molester for "dating" a 14 year old, rightfully so in my mind). Added to that, the compound had no running water with a large number of people living there. So, those factors alone would be all that they would need to send child services in to do a welfare check.

Actually, as with Warren Jeffs... I don't blame the people. I blame the leader. So in the end... I feel for the Branch Davidians. Good people. Warped leader. But, pretty sure that's how much of history has been. As I teach my students all the time, especially my AP art History kids since we talk quite a bit about religious history, especially during the Renaissance and Early Christian period...don't blame religion based upon humans acting on human weaknesses. The same would need to be said for those at Mt. Carmel... good people following a very misguided, leader who probably started off with good intentions, and perhaps allowed himself to feed on power. Having grown up in the South as a Mormon, I've certainly had my head touched a few times as misguided people searched for my horns--no joke...a particular church teaches we are spawns of Satan, literally, with horns. They always seemed disappointed when I didn't have any. I would always say they only come out at night, then wink. I've told that story to many of my classes as I teach them about tolerance of others, and to understand sometimes we humans are misinformed by good meaning people. And that we should be celebrating each other's differences. But, as in the case of Koresh, I think we will see he was led by his own desires, and need to "rule." Sounds like the FBI agent in charge may have been much the same.

Actually, as with Warren Jeffs... I don't blame the people. I blame the leader. So in the end... I feel for the Branch Davidians. Good people. Warped leader. But, pretty sure that's how much of history has been. As I teach my students all the time, especially my AP art History kids since we talk quite a bit about religious history, especially during the Renaissance and Early Christian period...don't blame religion based upon humans acting on human weaknesses. The same would need to be said for those at Mt. Carmel... good people following a very misguided, leader who probably started off with good intentions, and perhaps allowed himself to feed on power. Having grown up in the South as a Mormon, I've certainly had my head touched a few times as misguided people searched for my horns--no joke...a particular church teaches we are spawns of Satan, literally, with horns. They always seemed disappointed when I didn't have any. I would always say they only come out at night, then wink. I've told that story to many of my classes as I teach them about tolerance of others, and to understand sometimes we humans are misinformed by good meaning people. And that we should be celebrating each other's differences. But, as in the case of Koresh, I think we will see he was led by his own desires, and need to "rule." Sounds like the FBI agent in charge may have been much the same.

That is what I've concluded from all of it...

Sully......I believe Rachel's mom still lives outside of Waco along with several other brothers and sisters. Rachel died in the fire along with her sister and brother (as well as her 2 children and her sister's 2 children). The Joneses were devoted followers of Koresh and probably his core family but I am not sure her mother and the other siblings lived at the complex with Perry, Rachel and her brother and sister.

After tonight's episode, I have to still stand by my initial thoughts... those kids were in harm's way at Mt. Carmel.

From our initial discussion, I came to understand Rachel's marriage. Didn't agree with it, but... legal. But the sister? Married also to Koresh and sex at 12?? Nope... Definitely not cool, nor legal. And we saw how they were all ok with covering it up by asking Tibs to "marry" the sister? That to me proves that at ANY point, David, and possibly even Rachel, could say he/she had a "revelation" and ANY child was in danger of becoming the next wife? For ME? That shows child services had cause to remove the children from the home. What if Koresh had a vision that he must sacrifice a "lamb" like Abraham was called to do... and then said it was revealed which child should be the sacrificial lamb? From what I've seen, thus far... Pretty sure Koresh would get anything from his followers that he "preached" should be given.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Totally agree with you. My dislike for her is certainly not at the levels I have for Koresh. I do see her more as a "byproduct" of indoctrination at a young age. I actually really really like Rachel until her convo with her sister at the clothes line, then I was like "ummmm..." But then....her correcting the other wife? Ew! lol However, most of the time, I'm simply just loving Rachel because it's Melissa

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Exactly, all she had to go on was her discussions with Tibodeaux as well as pictures. Damn, she has her look down to a science. But, according to Tibodeaux she really did capture the essence of who and what Rachel was....it is amazing how they have used almost to the seating positions of the congregation...actual footage of him preaching. It has been very well done IMO....

I thought some might find this interesting....

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/959947181531725829

State by state legal marriage ages...

An interview with Melissa and Andrea Riseborough, who plays Judy, one of David's wives.

Waco Interview Magazine

"It wasn't police carrying this out at that time, it was the ATF..."

I meant it as the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms) being a law enforcement agency, not under military's jurisdiction. I'm assuming ATF first took "lead" due to the firearms stash. Then what we began to see in last episode was how operations were taken over by two separate teams of FBI--the negotiator vs. hostage rescue. SURE hope they have sense cleaned up how they operate between one another--learn from their mistakes, right? Even with lessons learned from 9/11, still sounds like agencies aren't talking as much as they should. Example: the gunman who shot up the church in Sutherland Springs should never have been sold a gun due to the fact that he had been court marshaled. There's another recent shooter, I can't remember which one, that one of the gun shop owners felt uneasy about him--I believe the fact the shooter wanted body armor along with AR-15--so the shop owner notified FBI, but it went no where.

The Sutherland Springs incident was a total screw up of unbelievable magnitude by the military, and they have found 100's of other of their screw ups and are now taking care of those. Agencies not talking with each other has been a huge problem. Not having enough interpreters to interpret chatter from around the world has been a problem. The fact that the 2nd Amendment was written in a time where the gun you used took you minutes to load and shoot, rather than 3 minutes to kill 50 people...and people still scream about their 2nd :Amendment rights when lawmakers talk about banning a device that turns a semi-automatic into an automatic.....*shakes head* it is just amazing.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

Well, even back then, when a Federal warrant was being served, you didn't just have one department serving it....my question was where were the US Marshal's, where was the local police who are supposed to be called in when warrants cross state, Federal etc are being served???? that is protocol that has been in place for a very long time. It was in place then.

It was the ATF's investigation and involved illegal weapons and explosives, which is a federal offense assigned specifically to the ATF branch. Because of that, they had jurisdiction and weren't required to take any local or state agencies to serve the warrant. And yes, sometimes they will out of courtesy contact and utilize them but, there are also many times where there is a willful attempt by various agencies to withhold information, generally because of ego (kind of like a dog peeing on an area to claim it as his). In this case, the show has shown that the ATF was under a lot of pressure to prove that they were still a vital agency that needed adequate gov't funding. Plus, they along with the FBI had just screwed up Ruby Ridge. That attitude going in skewed their investigation and their tactics. And was also most likely the reason why they didn't want to let any other agency in on the bust.

But, as I said, with 9/11 there seems to be more of a willingness among agencies to cooperate because they have seen the benefits and necessity of doing so.

Yes, 9/11 has started the ball rolling, at least between the CIA and FBI, there are still problems with information getting to Homeland Security....the fact that they put FEMA into Homeland Security has really screwed up a lot of information sharing, and FEMA is just one more thing that takes up the valuable time of Homeland Security. Such a stupid move...

The real problem today is there is just not a suitable data base showing who has bought what guns, ammo, etc....where, along with other items to make explosives. It is still only semi-solid within states, not from state to state. The infrastructure is just not in place....and the very fact that government agencies are still using computers that were bought over a decade ago, tells you where the infrastructure is....it is pathetic.

Yep, if we could just get some of the bureaucracy out of government agencies, they might actually function a little more smoothly . And that applies to all types of government agencies.

I’ve only watched the first three installments but they’re not pulling any punches with the reality of the situation. In some ways it’s like Titanic we know the ending but that doesn’t make it easier. I had planned to watch on Mondays but given your warning for the last installment I think I’ll change to a weekend when I can have a couple of stiff drinks.

Oh this episode was horrible to watch (in a good way, I guess). The loss of life was so pointless and heartbreaking and after watching it I was just stunned. Melissa was amazing as always but oh so heartbreaking and the law enforcements reactions when the fire started and no one was coming out side made me feel bad for even them, as the way it ended was obviously not as they planned.

Yep. All that right there. I couldn't shake the gut wrenching feeling those FBI agents, especially the two head honchos, HAD to be feeling of, "Oh my oh my oh my... What HAVE we done???"

Melissa at that ending? Sad that she even had to portray it! I remember her saying she was just gutted at the end of filming.

I watched the first installment last Monday, truly gripping television. I'll be watching the second installment during Supergirl's regular time tonight. I just looked it up and I'm sure this was on purpose, the final installment will air 2/28/2018 exactly 25 years after the siege started on 2/28/1993.