Everything Waco Thread

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Yes, I'm not condoning what they did, just explaining how easy it is to become manipulated into believing or acting in a way that is questionable.

Ive heard so many conflicted stories on that David himself strongly denied it as did other Davidians other than the 4 who left [their a story in itslef]In fact one of the accusers admitted he lied about it coz he wanted David's position and thought of himself as a Phrophet

I don't know that David would be a very reliable source. But, based on the ages of the young women and the children, if nothing else, there had to be child abuse and/or statutory rape involved. It would be very easy to prove one way or another if they had the DNA of the children involved.

This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies

The fact that Rachel married at 14 and her sister had a child at 14 would be enough to be concerning to child and protective services. (There's a certain judge who just ran for the US Senate that has the distinction of being labeled a child molester for "dating" a 14 year old, rightfully so in my mind). Added to that, the compound had no running water with a large number of people living there. So, those factors alone would be all that they would need to send child services in to do a welfare check.

I think I heard or read somewhere that CPS had made visits....I could be wrong.

"This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies."

Rachel... Married at age 14 after having left home so quickly, she was still in her pajamas. Statutory rape. Case closed on that one. Couple that with then having young children in the same "home" as a proven child rapist, under unusual circumstances? Why so angry?

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Exactly, all she had to go on was her discussions with Tibodeaux as well as pictures. Damn, she has her look down to a science. But, according to Tibodeaux she really did capture the essence of who and what Rachel was....it is amazing how they have used almost to the seating positions of the congregation...actual footage of him preaching. It has been very well done IMO….

Ive noticed a lot of great attention to detail in the show right down to the near exact newspaper headline and picture,even how windy it was at the time

Well, they chose a good area of New Mexico to use....it's windy there pretty much all the time, and its the same in Central Texas...well most all of Texas really.... LOL

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Watching episode 3, as we speak. Immediate questions:

1) Why on this green earth is ATF going in like gangbusters?? They knew women and children were in there. %?!%}?! So they just drive right up and start shooting? No attempts to talk to anyone? They supposedly were there to serve a warrant.

But, I have to wonder, if Tibs wrote this, was inside, and thus wouldn't have known... I wonder why the show depicts the first shots fired came from the officers shooting two dogs and all hell then breaks loose?

2) I'd like to know who gave them the so-called intel of where the gun room was. Initially they were told it was in the one area, but that was only the women's quarters. Turns out they were stashed in the "freezer." During the initial seige, the officers were told, again, to secure the gun area. Yet, even though the one ATF agent (forgot name) had already TOLD them previously that he checked, and the guns were not where they were initially told...they STILL breached the compound through the women's quarters to secure "the gun room."

3) I find it completely BAFFLING that they took ZERO communications with them? Like zilch? Nada? That's just down right idiotic. And its not like the ATF/FBI hadn't done and trained endlessly for operations before this.

That was a very intense episode. For some reason, the fire fight at the beginning reminded me of the opening scene of Private Ryan with a slightly lower level of gore.

The whole thing was completely baffling to me. So many mistakes were made by the ATF and then you add in all the testosterone and the delusional Koresh and it was a complete nightmare for those involved. I started watching this for Melissa but, after seeing three episodes, I would say it's one that is worth watching even if she wasn't in the show.

Evrafter - I think that a lot of what Jacob (the ATF undercover agent) told the ATF either was ignored or went over their heads because they were in a hurry to put a "win" in their belt in order to restore both the government and public opinion of their ability and necessity. The man on the radio said it best in that law enforcement's job is to de-escalate situations while the military tactic is to escalate. In this case, the ATF acted very militaristic because of needing that win. And then, to cover it up after the fact, seems to be a government go-to.

Evrafter - I think that a lot of what Jacob (the ATF undercover agent) told the ATF either was ignored or went over their heads because they were in a hurry to put a "win" in their belt in order to restore both the government and public opinion of their ability and necessity. The man on the radio said it best in that law enforcement's job is to de-escalate situations while the military tactic is to escalate. In this case, the ATF acted very militaristic because of needing that win. And then, to cover it up after the fact, seems to be a government go-to.

I just had a problem with radio dude labeling it military tactics. There were zero said tactics used.Thing is, ATF isn't the military it falls under law enforcement, and thus, not properly trained in that manner. They were supposedly there to serve a warrant. Instead, they full on just bum rushed the compound, it appeared, with zero tactical pre-planning. The military would have first secured the perimeter (which would have thus kept that one B. Davidian from being shot), then cut communications going out. Sounds more like, to me, this rests souly on the heads of those idiotic leaders. I mean, when a cameraman is able to yell "cease fire," and the ATF officers actually stopped? Wow. That lead ATF agent seemed like a total bumbling idiot.

I just had a problem with radio dude labeling it military tactics. There were zero said tactics used.Thing is, ATF isn't the military it falls under law enforcement, and thus, not properly trained in that manner. They were supposedly there to serve a warrant. Instead, they full on just bum rushed the compound, it appeared, with zero tactical pre-planning. The military would have first secured the perimeter (which would have thus kept that one B. Davidian from being shot), then cut communications going out. Sounds more like, to me, this rests souly on the heads of those idiotic leaders. I mean, when a cameraman is able to yell "cease fire," and the ATF officers actually stopped? Wow. That lead ATF agent seemed like a total bumbling idiot.

I think what he was saying, which is also what I was also implying, was that the ATF is a law enforcement organization but was using military tactics in the situation and that they shouldn't have done that. He was condemning their actions. Their job was to keep the situation calm and under control and instead, they escalated it (kind of like Alex at Julia's house ). Regarding that cameraman -that was some crazy stuff going on during that entire scene. I think my jaw hit the floor as soon as the shooting started and I didn't pick it up until some time after the guy was shot outside the house.

Even though I knew what was coming at the end, this was still very difficult to watch. It was so terrible - I don't even know what to say about it.

Melissa was so good. Her parts at the end - ugh

I still haven't been able to finish it.....I have gotten to where they try to get out through the bus, but then turn back....I can't get past that.

"ATF is a law enforcement organization but was using military tactics in the situation and that they shouldn't have done that."

But, what I was saying is they WEREN'T using military tactics. Military wouldn't have just rushed in with obviously zero planning. That was just going in, guns blazing. A military, as well as, MOST police raids have much better planning. These guys just sucked, which was obvious in that a cameraman with zero training was able to get the officers to stop. Military and police have much much more discipline than what was shown. So instead of "military tactics" I would label it "clueless, carless, DESPERITE, and armed recklessness."

Something tells me, once the military DOES show up in tanks, those same clueless, reckless, desperate agents are gonna order the military around. So, once again, it won't be military tactics.... only their equipment.

I had no problem with what the radio DJ said that was one thing that my friends and I actually talked about at the time that it happened . The helicopters were supposed to just be there as cover as the ground moved in that's military action that's military planning and then when it escalated they fired from the helicopters as well that's not police planning that's military planning it was way over-the-top . That is nothing to do with the right or wrong going on inside that compound that's totally separate from any of that . And for the ATF who asked for the news camera to be their knew they screwed up that's why they took the camera in the field and only released a portion of it they knew they screwed up. That was just a mess .

Been doing some more reading. Yep....Kelly and Sully are correct. Looks like they did try to employ military tactics. Apparently Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark is rumored to have had involvement--though he still downplays his roll. I think where I was misunderstanding the situation came from the fact that it was "police officers" carrying out moves generally made by the military. In my readings, it appears officers were "trained" at Ft. Hood. However, how much training did they actually get? Obviously not enough because the execution of their moves turned out to be a hot mess.

So, my absolute apologies to Sully and Kelly. I happily stand corrected.

Been doing some more reading. Yep....Kelly and Sully are correct. Looks like they did try to employ military tactics. Apparently Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark is rumored to have had involvement--though he still downplays his roll. I think where I was misunderstanding the situation came from the fact that it was "police officers" carrying out moves generally made by the military. In my readings, it appears officers were "trained" at Ft. Hood. However, how much training did they actually get? Obviously not enough because the execution of their moves turned out to be a hot mess.

So, my absolute apologies to Sully and Kelly. I happily stand corrected.

It wasn't police carrying this out at that time, it was the ATF, another problem that I had with it was the fact that they DID NOT bring in the Sherrif's department, the Waco Police Department, US Marshalls, or Texas Rangers...they could have brought any or all of those, and this would not have happened. That is another reason why this is categorized as a military action by so many....you don't keep secrets from the local agencies when serving a warrant, you bring them with you. Now, from this point on we will get the FBI POV from the negotiator, what he wrote in his book. Thus far inside the compound we have been getting the POV from actual phone conversations, radio, as well ad Tibodeaux's (young drummer guy, married to Rachel's sister) from what he wrote in his book.

And the very fact that the ATF confiscated the film footage from the (news guy that THEY ASKED TO BE THERE) tells you they knew they royally screwed up.

AGAIN, none of this wipes out what David Koresh was doing....and IMO, the lawyer inside the compound was wrong and scared the women with children the most. IMO, had David given himself up, along with probably may 4 - 5 of the other men, They would have gone in, seen that all guns and ammunition were legal...they had absolutely no history of violence from this group. He (David) had a good relationship with the local law enforcement. Had they gone at it that way, allowing the Sheriff to take David in......this would have never happened. They could have continued their lives....I think had the children been abused in any way, Thibodeaux would have brought that out in his book....he had nothing to gain from not telling the truth....he saw David for what he was....and it wasn't until he saw so many lies coming out as to what it was like on the inside that he decided to write his book.

And we are now going to get a clearer picture on law enforcement side from the negotiator's own account of what happened through these last 3 episodes.

"It wasn't police carrying this out at that time, it was the ATF..."

I meant it as the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms) being a law enforcement agency, not under military's jurisdiction. I'm assuming ATF first took "lead" due to the firearms stash. Then what we began to see in last episode was how operations were taken over by two separate teams of FBI--the negotiator vs. hostage rescue. SURE hope they have since cleaned up how they operate between one another--learn from their mistakes, right? Even with lessons learned from 9/11, still sounds like agencies aren't talking as much as they should. Example: the gunman who shot up the church in Sutherland Springs should never have been sold a gun due to the fact that he had been court marshaled. There's another recent shooter, I can't remember which one, that one of the gun shop owners felt uneasy about him--I believe the fact the shooter wanted body armor along with AR-15--so the shop owner notified FBI, but it went no where.

How was Melissa's performance in Episode 3?. Did Rachel get much story in the episode?.

She didn't appear as much as she did in Episode 2 but, she was good in what she was in, I thought. Most of Episode 3 was spent with the first encounter between the ATF and the Davidians which involved a lot of screen time on the fire fight, it's initial aftermath and the appearance of the FBI.

I think had the children been abused in any way, Thibodeaux would have brought that out in his book....he had nothing to gain from not telling the truth....he saw David for what he was....and it wasn't until he saw so many lies coming out as to what it was like on the inside that he decided to write his book.

I was reading some more on the event and I think that the child abuse explanation was what the FBI told Janet Reno was happening inside the compound in order to justify some of the tactics that they wanted to use. I don't believe that they had a lot of evidence of child abuse beforehand and the basis of their warrant was for the illegal guns and explosives that they thought were in the facility. That said, young girls being sexually abused by David definitely would qualify as child abuse and the other adults that allowed it to happen are complicit in that abuse, I think. Nevertheless, that wasn't the rationale for the raid and definitely doesn't justify the level of force that was used in the raid.

Anyone remember the Elian Gonzalez raid, too? With Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elian...wow. Not some good years there.

But, back to Waco. Looking forward to Melissa's acting in these next few heartbreaking episodes. Waco... The story I never realized needed to be told... until now.

I think had the children been abused in any way, Thibodeaux would have brought that out in his book....he had nothing to gain from not telling the truth....he saw David for what he was....and it wasn't until he saw so many lies coming out as to what it was like on the inside that he decided to write his book.

I was reading some more on the event and I think that the child abuse explanation was what the FBI told Janet Reno was happening inside the compound in order to justify some of the tactics that they wanted to use. I don't believe that they had a lot of evidence of child abuse beforehand and the basis of their warrant was for the illegal guns and explosives that they thought were in the facility. That said, young girls being sexually abused by David definitely would qualify as child abuse and the other adults that allowed it to happen are complicit in that abuse, I think. Nevertheless, that wasn't the rationale for the raid and definitely doesn't justify the level of force that was used in the raid.

My reason for bringing that up is that it seems his wife and other women, were more afraid of losing their children and I think had the authorities made assurances that that would not happen, and that they only wanted to bring David and others in for questioning and a more through investigation....and allowed the Sheriff's department to bring them in, not Government....I think things would have gone far differently.

My reason for bringing that up is that it seems his wife and other women, were more afraid of losing their children and I think had the authorities made assurances that that would not happen, and that they only wanted to bring David and others in for questioning and a more through investigation....and allowed the Sheriff's department to bring them in, not Government....I think things would have gone far differently.

Yep, I agree. And along with fear of losing their children, it was also a fear of losing who they were. I thought that one of Melissa's best scenes was early on, when David was telling her that they were going to have to leave and Melissa's response was that her life in the compound was all she ever knew. That was very telling and you had to feel sorry for her because of her fear of possibly having to exist in a life outside of what she had had since childhood.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

My reason for bringing that up is that it seems his wife and other women, were more afraid of losing their children and I think had the authorities made assurances that that would not happen, and that they only wanted to bring David and others in for questioning and a more through investigation....and allowed the Sheriff's department to bring them in, not Government....I think things would have gone far differently.

Yep, I agree. And along with fear of losing their children, it was also a fear of losing who they were. I thought that one of Melissa's best scenes was early on, when David was telling her that they were going to have to leave and Melissa's response was that her life in the compound was all she ever knew. That was very telling and you had to feel sorry for her because of her fear of possibly having to exist in a life outside of what she had had since childhood.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

Well, even back then, when a Federal warrant was being served, you didn't just have one department serving it....my question was where were the US Marshal's, where was the local police who are supposed to be called in when warrants cross state, Federal etc are being served???? that is protocol that has been in place for a very long time. It was in place then.

Why? The ATF wanted all the glory for this one, they listened to exactly 1 informant who was mad at Koresh based their entire process on him and where he said the guns were stashed. DID NOT even listen to their own agent that had been inside the compound and wanted to show the world that they weren't royal **** ups like what happened at Ruby Ridge....and well, another **** up was born.