Everything Waco Thread

"ATF is a law enforcement organization but was using military tactics in the situation and that they shouldn't have done that."

But, what I was saying is they WEREN'T using military tactics. Military wouldn't have just rushed in with obviously zero planning. That was just going in, guns blazing. A military, as well as, MOST police raids have much better planning. These guys just sucked, which was obvious in that a cameraman with zero training was able to get the officers to stop. Military and police have much much more discipline than what was shown. So instead of "military tactics" I would label it "clueless, carless, DESPERITE, and armed recklessness."

Something tells me, once the military DOES show up in tanks, those same clueless, reckless, desperate agents are gonna order the military around. So, once again, it won't be military tactics.... only their equipment.

I just had a problem with radio dude labeling it military tactics. There were zero said tactics used.Thing is, ATF isn't the military it falls under law enforcement, and thus, not properly trained in that manner. They were supposedly there to serve a warrant. Instead, they full on just bum rushed the compound, it appeared, with zero tactical pre-planning. The military would have first secured the perimeter (which would have thus kept that one B. Davidian from being shot), then cut communications going out. Sounds more like, to me, this rests souly on the heads of those idiotic leaders. I mean, when a cameraman is able to yell "cease fire," and the ATF officers actually stopped? Wow. That lead ATF agent seemed like a total bumbling idiot.

I think what he was saying, which is also what I was also implying, was that the ATF is a law enforcement organization but was using military tactics in the situation and that they shouldn't have done that. He was condemning their actions. Their job was to keep the situation calm and under control and instead, they escalated it (kind of like Alex at Julia's house ). Regarding that cameraman -that was some crazy stuff going on during that entire scene. I think my jaw hit the floor as soon as the shooting started and I didn't pick it up until some time after the guy was shot outside the house.

Evrafter - I think that a lot of what Jacob (the ATF undercover agent) told the ATF either was ignored or went over their heads because they were in a hurry to put a "win" in their belt in order to restore both the government and public opinion of their ability and necessity. The man on the radio said it best in that law enforcement's job is to de-escalate situations while the military tactic is to escalate. In this case, the ATF acted very militaristic because of needing that win. And then, to cover it up after the fact, seems to be a government go-to.

I just had a problem with radio dude labeling it military tactics. There were zero said tactics used.Thing is, ATF isn't the military it falls under law enforcement, and thus, not properly trained in that manner. They were supposedly there to serve a warrant. Instead, they full on just bum rushed the compound, it appeared, with zero tactical pre-planning. The military would have first secured the perimeter (which would have thus kept that one B. Davidian from being shot), then cut communications going out. Sounds more like, to me, this rests souly on the heads of those idiotic leaders. I mean, when a cameraman is able to yell "cease fire," and the ATF officers actually stopped? Wow. That lead ATF agent seemed like a total bumbling idiot.

That was a very intense episode. For some reason, the fire fight at the beginning reminded me of the opening scene of Private Ryan with a slightly lower level of gore.

The whole thing was completely baffling to me. So many mistakes were made by the ATF and then you add in all the testosterone and the delusional Koresh and it was a complete nightmare for those involved. I started watching this for Melissa but, after seeing three episodes, I would say it's one that is worth watching even if she wasn't in the show.

Evrafter - I think that a lot of what Jacob (the ATF undercover agent) told the ATF either was ignored or went over their heads because they were in a hurry to put a "win" in their belt in order to restore both the government and public opinion of their ability and necessity. The man on the radio said it best in that law enforcement's job is to de-escalate situations while the military tactic is to escalate. In this case, the ATF acted very militaristic because of needing that win. And then, to cover it up after the fact, seems to be a government go-to.

Watching episode 3, as we speak. Immediate questions:

1) Why on this green earth is ATF going in like gangbusters?? They knew women and children were in there. %?!%}?! So they just drive right up and start shooting? No attempts to talk to anyone? They supposedly were there to serve a warrant.

But, I have to wonder, if Tibs wrote this, was inside, and thus wouldn't have known... I wonder why the show depicts the first shots fired came from the officers shooting two dogs and all hell then breaks loose?

2) I'd like to know who gave them the so-called intel of where the gun room was. Initially they were told it was in the one area, but that was only the women's quarters. Turns out they were stashed in the "freezer." During the initial seige, the officers were told, again, to secure the gun area. Yet, even though the one ATF agent (forgot name) had already TOLD them previously that he checked, and the guns were not where they were initially told...they STILL breached the compound through the women's quarters to secure "the gun room."

3) I find it completely BAFFLING that they took ZERO communications with them? Like zilch? Nada? That's just down right idiotic. And its not like the ATF/FBI hadn't done and trained endlessly for operations before this.

An interview with Melissa and Andrea Riseborough, who plays Judy, one of David's wives.

Waco Interview Magazine

I thought some might find this interesting....

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/959947181531725829

State by state legal marriage ages...

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Exactly, all she had to go on was her discussions with Tibodeaux as well as pictures. Damn, she has her look down to a science. But, according to Tibodeaux she really did capture the essence of who and what Rachel was....it is amazing how they have used almost to the seating positions of the congregation...actual footage of him preaching. It has been very well done IMO….

Ive noticed a lot of great attention to detail in the show right down to the near exact newspaper headline and picture,even how windy it was at the time

Well, they chose a good area of New Mexico to use....it's windy there pretty much all the time, and its the same in Central Texas...well most all of Texas really.... LOL

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Exactly, all she had to go on was her discussions with Tibodeaux as well as pictures. Damn, she has her look down to a science. But, according to Tibodeaux she really did capture the essence of who and what Rachel was....it is amazing how they have used almost to the seating positions of the congregation...actual footage of him preaching. It has been very well done IMO....

After tonight's episode, I have to still stand by my initial thoughts... those kids were in harm's way at Mt. Carmel.

From our initial discussion, I came to understand Rachel's marriage. Didn't agree with it, but... legal. But the sister? Married also to Koresh and sex at 12?? Nope... Definitely not cool, nor legal. And we saw how they were all ok with covering it up by asking Tibs to "marry" the sister? That to me proves that at ANY point, David, and possibly even Rachel, could say he/she had a "revelation" and ANY child was in danger of becoming the next wife? For ME? That shows child services had cause to remove the children from the home. What if Koresh had a vision that he must sacrifice a "lamb" like Abraham was called to do... and then said it was revealed which child should be the sacrificial lamb? From what I've seen, thus far... Pretty sure Koresh would get anything from his followers that he "preached" should be given.

How was Melissa's performance in this episode?.

I found myself disliking the character that she played, so she did a damn good job. LOL

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Totally agree with you. My dislike for her is certainly not at the levels I have for Koresh. I do see her more as a "byproduct" of indoctrination at a young age. I actually really really like Rachel until her convo with her sister at the clothes line, then I was like "ummmm..." But then....her correcting the other wife? Ew! lol However, most of the time, I'm simply just loving Rachel because it's Melissa

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

She's just so good, Kiwi, with the ability to completely encompass any role handed to her. I actually found myself not liking her... well, Rachel. Bah ha ha ha

I get that Rachel was just 100% devoted to her beliefs. We also were introduced to how she, much like Koresh, saw herself as leader... and clearly was ready to confront anyone who might challenge her position. She, again like Koresh, demonstrated the ability to turn the situation around and make anyone, who questioned a revelation, feel bad for questioning.

Do you know anything about Elizabeth Smart? She was kidnapped from her home by a homeless man and his wife. Elizabeth's father had hired him to do work around the house, butthe man had the revelation that Elizabeth needed to become his wife, and kidnapped her from her bed in the middle of the night. She's actually from here in Salt Lake. I even joined one of the search parties for her. Brian David Mitchell and his wife remind me SOMEWhat now of Koresh and Rachel. Both couples thought they received revelation. Koresh and Rachel, much kinder, and definitely didn't kidnap anyone. But devotion to their dreams? Similar. A few months after taking Elizabeth, Brian had another revelation in the form of a dream that Elizabeth's cousin should become his 3rd wife, but while trying to sneak into HER room, he knocked over a vase, and he ran off.

Long story short, Elizabeth was found a year later... actually... A block from the school I teach at. Go research her. Amazing amazing story. Elizabeth is one of the strongest, most incredible people. Even after all she's been through, she ended up serving a mission in France for our Church, is now married with two children, and is an advocate for children and laws to protect them.

After tonight's episode, I have to still stand by my initial thoughts... those kids were in harm's way at Mt. Carmel.

From our initial discussion, I came to understand Rachel's marriage. Didn't agree with it, but... legal. But the sister? Married also to Koresh and sex at 12?? Nope... Definitely not cool, nor legal. And we saw how they were all ok with covering it up by asking Tibs to "marry" the sister? That to me proves that at ANY point, David, and possibly even Rachel, could say he/she had a "revelation" and ANY child was in danger of becoming the next wife? For ME? That shows child services had cause to remove the children from the home. What if Koresh had a vision that he must sacrifice a "lamb" like Abraham was called to do... and then said it was revealed which child should be the sacrificial lamb? From what I've seen, thus far... Pretty sure Koresh would get anything from his followers that he "preached" should be given.

Sully......I believe Rachel's mom still lives outside of Waco along with several other brothers and sisters. Rachel died in the fire along with her sister and brother (as well as her 2 children and her sister's 2 children). The Joneses were devoted followers of Koresh and probably his core family but I am not sure her mother and the other siblings lived at the complex with Perry, Rachel and her brother and sister.

Actually, as with Warren Jeffs... I don't blame the people. I blame the leader. So in the end... I feel for the Branch Davidians. Good people. Warped leader. But, pretty sure that's how much of history has been. As I teach my students all the time, especially my AP art History kids since we talk quite a bit about religious history, especially during the Renaissance and Early Christian period...don't blame religion based upon humans acting on human weaknesses. The same would need to be said for those at Mt. Carmel... good people following a very misguided, leader who probably started off with good intentions, and perhaps allowed himself to feed on power. Having grown up in the South as a Mormon, I've certainly had my head touched a few times as misguided people searched for my horns--no joke...a particular church teaches we are spawns of Satan, literally, with horns. They always seemed disappointed when I didn't have any. I would always say they only come out at night, then wink. I've told that story to many of my classes as I teach them about tolerance of others, and to understand sometimes we humans are misinformed by good meaning people. And that we should be celebrating each other's differences. But, as in the case of Koresh, I think we will see he was led by his own desires, and need to "rule." Sounds like the FBI agent in charge may have been much the same.

That is what I've concluded from all of it...

Actually, as with Warren Jeffs... I don't blame the people. I blame the leader. So in the end... I feel for the Branch Davidians. Good people. Warped leader. But, pretty sure that's how much of history has been. As I teach my students all the time, especially my AP art History kids since we talk quite a bit about religious history, especially during the Renaissance and Early Christian period...don't blame religion based upon humans acting on human weaknesses. The same would need to be said for those at Mt. Carmel... good people following a very misguided, leader who probably started off with good intentions, and perhaps allowed himself to feed on power. Having grown up in the South as a Mormon, I've certainly had my head touched a few times as misguided people searched for my horns--no joke...a particular church teaches we are spawns of Satan, literally, with horns. They always seemed disappointed when I didn't have any. I would always say they only come out at night, then wink. I've told that story to many of my classes as I teach them about tolerance of others, and to understand sometimes we humans are misinformed by good meaning people. And that we should be celebrating each other's differences. But, as in the case of Koresh, I think we will see he was led by his own desires, and need to "rule." Sounds like the FBI agent in charge may have been much the same.

Your information on those students and their experiences is really interesting, Evrafter.

I live in an area that is almost surrounded by Old Order Amish, who obviously live very strict religious lives. To see how they live, it's hard to imagine why any would choose to live in that way, especially the females. And, all teens actually have the opportunity to leave when they are older but, many choose to stay. I know of a few who have left and like your students, Evrafter, they have a difficult time adjusting to the English way of life. Many times, they end up going back to the order.

Completely agree with you Kelly that it is about understanding that there are different cultures and that we have to be open-minded in examining their rituals - to a point. When it begins to violate basic human rights, then that is where I draw the line in being open-minded. I also think that when you're born into a culture, such as the ones that we have been discussing, it becomes your norm. So, that's why young people such as Rachel and her sister end up making the choices that they made.

Emsmomm- thank you for that information. So her dad was there and was killed prior to the fire. Plus, it sounds like he had a pretty high standing within the group. Do you know what happened to mom?

Well, to be clear.....I don't equate either of those groups with LDS. I have several friends who are Mormon and they are as richly spiritual as any Southern Baptist, Catholic, etc that I have ever known....I don't agree with them on everything, but I also don't agree with my SB and Catholic friends either on everything. I would probably be considered a Deist if I sat down long enough with someone to pick my spiritual brain.

I guess for me, what I'm trying to say is.....I have for so many years tried very hard to teach myself, and my students to learn about other beliefs, cultures, etc without falling into a ethnocentrism type of thinking, and so that just finds its way into how I view things, and it finds its way into how I view shows, movies, etc as well....sometimes without even realizing it, I may come off as unfeeling, and that's not it at all....I found myself wondering what these people's lives would have been like had they not all died in that fire, and without David Koresh in their lives.

Welp... Being I live in Utah (yes, I am Mormon. No we don't practice polygamy ), we DO have quite a few students in our school who have escaped the Warren Jeff's community located about 3.5 hours south of here. No, he's not Mormon... They're FLDS... Fundamentalist LDS.

ANYway... The students I have had who escaped, a few had been married at 13 and 14. And I have had some of the young men who had escaped, as well. ALL of them have struggled socially, emotionally, and mentally. They're struggling to adjust to "the outside world"." Though, I've noted the boys are MUCH quicker to adjust. They're usually quite behind in schooling, as well. Two of my students were on tv quite a bit when they escaped--even appearing on Dr. Phil a few years ago. One of the sisters couldn't adjust, and escaped her mother's and made her way back to the polygamist community.

I've seen similarities between the two groups. But, with how the group's been portrayed on Waco... they do seem a bit more grounded...minus, of course, Koresh. We shall see.