Everything Waco Thread

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

Well, even back then, when a Federal warrant was being served, you didn't just have one department serving it....my question was where were the US Marshal's, where was the local police who are supposed to be called in when warrants cross state, Federal etc are being served???? that is protocol that has been in place for a very long time. It was in place then.

It was the ATF's investigation and involved illegal weapons and explosives, which is a federal offense assigned specifically to the ATF branch. Because of that, they had jurisdiction and weren't required to take any local or state agencies to serve the warrant. And yes, sometimes they will out of courtesy contact and utilize them but, there are also many times where there is a willful attempt by various agencies to withhold information, generally because of ego (kind of like a dog peeing on an area to claim it as his). In this case, the show has shown that the ATF was under a lot of pressure to prove that they were still a vital agency that needed adequate gov't funding. Plus, they along with the FBI had just screwed up Ruby Ridge. That attitude going in skewed their investigation and their tactics. And was also most likely the reason why they didn't want to let any other agency in on the bust.

But, as I said, with 9/11 there seems to be more of a willingness among agencies to cooperate because they have seen the benefits and necessity of doing so.

I totally get that it was a government deal, the thing is, they are to have back up from the local authorities when serving a warrant, which is what they were SUPPOSED to be doing....serving a warrant, not going to war.

Yes, 9/11 has started the ball rolling, at least between the CIA and FBI, there are still problems with information getting to Homeland Security....the fact that they put FEMA into Homeland Security has really screwed up a lot of information sharing, and FEMA is just one more thing that takes up the valuable time of Homeland Security. Such a stupid move...

The real problem today is there is just not a suitable data base showing who has bought what guns, ammo, etc....where, along with other items to make explosives. It is still only semi-solid within states, not from state to state. The infrastructure is just not in place....and the very fact that government agencies are still using computers that were bought over a decade ago, tells you where the infrastructure is....it is pathetic.

I couldn't finish it...

I thought this was another good episode. It seems to me that, if they could have gotten rid of the two main FBI guys and David, this whole thing most likely would have ended without so many fatalities. And we also are able to see more of how good of a relationship the sheriff had with David. He definitely should have been utilized more in the negotiation process. Man, they really screwed up.

This series is just so compelling to me. But, it's also hard to watch because when I sit and watch these characters, I get so invested in them that I forget that it is not just another fictional show. And then, in the middle of viewing it, I remember the reality of the situation, and that most of these characters will end up dying, and it makes me angry and very sad.

I watched the first installment last Monday, truly gripping television. I'll be watching the second installment during Supergirl's regular time tonight. I just looked it up and I'm sure this was on purpose, the final installment will air 2/28/2018 exactly 25 years after the siege started on 2/28/1993.

Yep, I'm sure that was totally on purpose. This series has hit me harder than I thought it would have. It's just little things that have really made me rethink this or that....I'm about to start reading the two books that the series is based from....I'm starting with the negotiator's book, I think he probably has a harder time with what happened than most because he has a true understanding of what could have been.......I also find myself realizing just how terrible things really were under the Clinton Administration. I guess because I was just starting my teaching career, my 403b was doing great with the stock market, I was young, stupid, liberal and didn't care about politics.....I don't know, but I just finished "Ghosts of Rwanda" with my students, we also talked about Somalia and what happened 3 weeks before the genocide broke out in Rwanda, we have also talked about Kosovo, and as I went through all of these things I realized just how many times the Clinton administration dropped the ball on so many things...both domestic and foreign. It is really true that history truly writes the book as to how well a President did in their years in office, or how badly. It was just eyeopening.....

I have cable, but not Paramount Network. Any ideas where one would be able to watch this show online?

Wow. That episode had me all kinds of angered!

I'm under the complete belief that take out Koresh, the FBI lead, and that a-hole agent in charge of hostage release, every single person in there would be alive today--minus death by natural cause or some other event unrelated to Waco. Three people... Three... created the ending.

Koresh TRULY showed who he really was when he ordered, "Now get out of MY chapel." That should have been a que for all of them to walk on out and leave Koresh's a$$ in there alone. And his comment to Tibs, "They are
MINE... *pause*....to protect"?? Wow...showing his true colors and they were so "brainwashed," they didn't see the truth of who he truly was.

But, not gonna lie... I may have said a little "hell yeah" at the B. Davidian's response tonight to the FBI at the end.

@evrafter - It really does have the viewer go through an emotional rollercoaster, doesn't? First, I get so angry and frustrated with the FBI agents in charge and then I get completely blown away at how delusional and controlling Koresh was and that really makes me angry. I really just feel terribly sorry for the women, children and a few of the guys like Thibodeau and Steve who are trying to get out of the situation.

I'm under the complete belief that take out Koresh, the FBI lead, and that a-hole agent in charge of hostage release

Are you talking about the lead negotiator, Gary? I thought Gary was doing the best he could with what he was given.

A couple of things that I thought of while watching last night:
1) why didn't they (FBI) try sending a small group of people in to negotiate with them instead of doing all the communication from the outside? I think that if the lead FBI agent, Gary and the sheriff could have gone in to meet with the Davidians face to face, they could have reassured them of their safety, which seemed to be what was keeping some of them from going out. Anytime you can make communication more personal, it has a greater effect on the outcome.

2) I think that the producers took a few liberties to show the Davidians in a more favorable light when they had Gary question the allegation of child abuse. They already established that young girls had been abused and forced to marry David. I also read an article that stated a psychologist that dealt with the children who were released who said the children were taught at a very young age to carry a gun and march. Plus, they weren't given some of the basic necessities like running water, a toilet that flushed or toys such as a basketball, etc. While that might not constitute as abuse, I wouldn't say it was a good environment for raising children.

@evrafter - It really does have the viewer go through an emotional rollercoaster, doesn't? First, I get so angry and frustrated with the FBI agents in charge and then I get completely blown away at how delusional and controlling Koresh was and that really makes me angry. I really just feel terribly sorry for the women, children and a few of the guys like Thibodeau and Steve who are trying to get out of the situation.

I'm under the complete belief that take out Koresh, the FBI lead, and that a-hole agent in charge of hostage release

Are you talking about the lead negotiator, Gary? I thought Gary was doing the best he could with what he was given.

Oh heck no! Sorry, Sully. If it were left to Gary and Steve they would have come to an understanding and release.

Gary is lead negotiator. That a-hole guy is the lead in hostage release. They're actually two different positions, and are SUPPOSE to work hand-in-hand. Obviously, the FBI lead and FBI lead of hostage release were complete spineless power-trippin jerks.

I have had several attempts at watching this, but haven't persevered. It is simply not my sort of programme, primarily in view of the violence. I would of course watch anything to see Melissa, but she is simply not in it enough for me!

Two points:
I hadn't realised that more than 30 of the cult had recently been recruited from England: over 20 of them were among the dead.
As someone from outside the US, I was distressed (but not totally surprised) by how many people had guns, and the ease with which they were used. I know there are lots of guns in movies nowadays and I tend not to watch them, but they are usually works of fiction. This programme was meant to depict real life.

I still haven't watched the last 1 minute and 15 seconds....it is still on my DVR stopped with that left... since it aired.