Everything Waco Thread

Your information on those students and their experiences is really interesting, Evrafter.

I live in an area that is almost surrounded by Old Order Amish, who obviously live very strict religious lives. To see how they live, it's hard to imagine why any would choose to live in that way, especially the females. And, all teens actually have the opportunity to leave when they are older but, many choose to stay. I know of a few who have left and like your students, Evrafter, they have a difficult time adjusting to the English way of life. Many times, they end up going back to the order.

Completely agree with you Kelly that it is about understanding that there are different cultures and that we have to be open-minded in examining their rituals - to a point. When it begins to violate basic human rights, then that is where I draw the line in being open-minded. I also think that when you're born into a culture, such as the ones that we have been discussing, it becomes your norm. So, that's why young people such as Rachel and her sister end up making the choices that they made.

Emsmomm- thank you for that information. So her dad was there and was killed prior to the fire. Plus, it sounds like he had a pretty high standing within the group. Do you know what happened to mom?

She's just so good, Kiwi, with the ability to completely encompass any role handed to her. I actually found myself not liking her... well, Rachel. Bah ha ha ha

I get that Rachel was just 100% devoted to her beliefs. We also were introduced to how she, much like Koresh, saw herself as leader... and clearly was ready to confront anyone who might challenge her position. She, again like Koresh, demonstrated the ability to turn the situation around and make anyone, who questioned a revelation, feel bad for questioning.

Do you know anything about Elizabeth Smart? She was kidnapped from her home by a homeless man and his wife. Elizabeth's father had hired him to do work around the house, butthe man had the revelation that Elizabeth needed to become his wife, and kidnapped her from her bed in the middle of the night. She's actually from here in Salt Lake. I even joined one of the search parties for her. Brian David Mitchell and his wife remind me SOMEWhat now of Koresh and Rachel. Both couples thought they received revelation. Koresh and Rachel, much kinder, and definitely didn't kidnap anyone. But devotion to their dreams? Similar. A few months after taking Elizabeth, Brian had another revelation in the form of a dream that Elizabeth's cousin should become his 3rd wife, but while trying to sneak into HER room, he knocked over a vase, and he ran off.

Long story short, Elizabeth was found a year later... actually... A block from the school I teach at. Go research her. Amazing amazing story. Elizabeth is one of the strongest, most incredible people. Even after all she's been through, she ended up serving a mission in France for our Church, is now married with two children, and is an advocate for children and laws to protect them.

After tonight's episode, I have to still stand by my initial thoughts... those kids were in harm's way at Mt. Carmel.

From our initial discussion, I came to understand Rachel's marriage. Didn't agree with it, but... legal. But the sister? Married also to Koresh and sex at 12?? Nope... Definitely not cool, nor legal. And we saw how they were all ok with covering it up by asking Tibs to "marry" the sister? That to me proves that at ANY point, David, and possibly even Rachel, could say he/she had a "revelation" and ANY child was in danger of becoming the next wife? For ME? That shows child services had cause to remove the children from the home. What if Koresh had a vision that he must sacrifice a "lamb" like Abraham was called to do... and then said it was revealed which child should be the sacrificial lamb? From what I've seen, thus far... Pretty sure Koresh would get anything from his followers that he "preached" should be given.

How was Melissa's performance in this episode?.

I found myself disliking the character that she played, so she did a damn good job. LOL

Even though I knew what was coming at the end, this was still very difficult to watch. It was so terrible - I don't even know what to say about it.

Melissa was so good. Her parts at the end - ugh

How was Melissa's performance in Episode 3?. Did Rachel get much story in the episode?.

She's great in anything she does. There was a scene where they were crying over their father, suddenly one of the B. Davidians tried sneaking IN to the compound during the firefight, and they shot him. Just Melissa's simple flinching as you could hear them shooting, was perfect. She's just so dang good at even the little nuances.

How was Melissa's performance in Episode 3?. Did Rachel get much story in the episode?.

She's great in anything she does. There was a scene where they were crying over their father, suddenly one of the B. Davidians tried sneaking IN to the compound during the firefight, and they shot him. Just Melissa's simple flinching as you could hear them shooting, was perfect. She's just so dang good at even the little nuances.

It is those little things that she does that puts her heads above most actors on TV today. These director's saw it, Kevin Smith almost had a fangasm over it....and I think that is probably what got her the part of Supergirl.

I’ve only watched the first three installments but they’re not pulling any punches with the reality of the situation. In some ways it’s like Titanic we know the ending but that doesn’t make it easier. I had planned to watch on Mondays but given your warning for the last installment I think I’ll change to a weekend when I can have a couple of stiff drinks.

Yeah, Episode 2 was shocking because I didn't remember the intensity of the firefight. And yes, they pretty much didn't leave much left to the imagination on that one. But, the last episode was just so incredibly sad because of the desperation depicted in conjunction with the knowledge of the ending as you watch it. I think I would forgo the stiff drinks and just have the entire bottle within reach

Oh this episode was horrible to watch (in a good way, I guess). The loss of life was so pointless and heartbreaking and after watching it I was just stunned. Melissa was amazing as always but oh so heartbreaking and the law enforcements reactions when the fire started and no one was coming out side made me feel bad for even them, as the way it ended was obviously not as they planned.

Just a comment: Waco takes on two small views of the whole story. There is a larger picture. Did the ATF screw things up? Yes. Was David Koresh a wing nut? Yes. Ws the outcome preordained? Who knows.

This programme is much more sympathetic to the Branch Davidians, than post mortems of the events indicate. The program is riveting, though, because of the superb acting. I find this Koresh very unnervingand that speaks to the actor's performance. I look forward as from what perspective they will end the mini series.

Argo

I think Mel did a fine performance. Like Sully noted, she was very effective in using facial and body expressions. One scen that sticks out is when she goes on tape and talks about her father being killed and “thank you very much.” It is virtually an exact copy of Rachel in the original tape.

It doesn’t surprise me at all if there’s a tape of Rachel that Melissa would be able to precisely recreate it. Someone did a mashup of the “General would you care to step outside” line from the crossover and when Christopher Reeve said it. She has the exact same facial expression and look in her eyes. I like to think this is one of many times Christopher Reeve is smiling down looking at her performance.

Somewhere I saw a video of Rachel sitting next to David talking, and I have a feeling that was a portion of that particular video.

"This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies."

Rachel... Married at age 14 after having left home so quickly, she was still in her pajamas. Statutory rape. Case closed on that one. Couple that with then having young children in the same "home" as a proven child rapist, under unusual circumstances? Why so angry?

Still doesn't make him a pedophile also Rachel was complicit.

Actually, that's the exact definition of a pedaphile. It's the exact reason Warren Jeffs is currently sitting in jail, as he should be. Complicit? She was 14. I don't think I can say anything more there that hasn't already been proven.

However, the part about the FBI's actions... I will probably have to agree with you, but withhold further judgement till I watch. I have a feeling it'll fit with my current thoughts on the FBI--parts of the upper echelon might be corrupt, but rank and file members are patriots doing a selfless job protecting this country.

At the time this all started, I was fresh out of college beginning my teaching career. Teaching which was my first choice was put on the back burner because I thought that I wanted to be an FBI Forensics specialist instead, got my Criminal Justice degree and was ready to go, until I realized how I hate guns, and realized just how much of a pacifist I really am....I quickly got my teaching certificate and found my true calling....HOWEVER, the FBI agent inside has never died....LMAO......and I watched ever single bit of news coverage, documentaries, read every article I could on the Ruby Ridge incident, the Waco incident and the Oklahoma bombing....The family at Ruby Ridge were most definitely were radical white supremacists no doubt....and definitely need to have eyes on their comings and goings....but was it to the point of the FBI going in with such force to get them out? I don't think so...

As far as Waco, I think the most recent FLDS and Jeffs situation, I think shows that the FBI learned from the Waco incident and followed their leads and did what they needed to do in the right pace and manner. At Waco, the entire time I was watching all of that happen I was thinking, "What is going on there, does it rise to the point of this kind of force?" And I was never able to answer that as yes. I remember talking about with friends from school that have gone on to be Texas Rangers, ATF officers, DPS, FBI as well as Sherrif and local police departments around Texas. 100% shook their heads at what was happening, we all just kept thinking....maybe they had information that we just did not know about....I have yet to see or hear anything since then that said yes, they had the kind of information that merited going in with that kind of force. And I'm talking about the first push in where the ATF agents were hurt and killed as well....tanks, etc....???? I just don't see that...

Did they (people in the compound) commit suicide, start the fires, etc....???? Probably....but were they pushed to that cliff with what was going on outside.

I always think about this man.... http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Authorities-ignore-fugitive-holed-up-on-Texas-1693380.php he has been holed up on his land for quite awhile, they keep an eye on him and his family, but he lives off the grid out there. One of these days I'm sure they will have their chance to take him in.....

I just have a feeling that if they had just chilled and kept a watchful eye on David Koresh to the point where they would not be able to leave their land easily, maybe law enforcement build a relationship with them to allow CPS in just to make sure the children were ok, and build their case, they could have ended this differently? That question will never be answered....

I also think they could have talked to many of the families there at different points, building relationships with them outside of the compound. They could have gotten more information on the children....

AND, had they gone after David Koresh only, as zeroed in on him as they were Jeffs, I think they could have gotten him...

I just think it is sad for the people like Rachel who only knew of that life were never given a chance to realize there was so much more out there for them...It would have been great if those that knew of nothing else like Warren Jeffs daughter could have been given the chance that she has had to leave that life behind and move on...

Yes, crazy enough, it's legal in many states to marry at the age of 14. So, basically, the way the law works is that if you're 14 and don't marry the person, it's statutory rape but, if you marry him/her with parent permission of course, then everything is okey dokey. You'd be surprised the number of laws written in the 19th Century that are still on the books in many states. But, just because the archaic law still exists, doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.

Consent by a 14 year old has to be taken with a grain of salt. After all, this is someone who is, at the most, a 9th grader, depending on birthday. A teen who is most likely still having problems managing homework, a locker, what they're going to wear and how they're going to find transportation to the out of town ballgame. Thinking that they are mature enough to be in a relationship with an adult and have rational thought and emotional capability to decide what's best in terms of a lifetime commitment is absolutely absurd.

As far as the FBI and other enforcement agencies, they're no different than any other occupation. There are bad teachers but, that does't mean that an entire school is incompetent. Same for doctors, counselors, mechanics, etc. There have been and still are some individuals within the law enforcement organization that are unscrupulous but, that doesn't make the entire organization corrupt.

Perry Jones, Rachel's father, was David Koresh's chief errand runner who died in the Feb. 28 shootout at the compound with agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. This was prior to the fire that killed Rachel along with many other Branch Davidians in April.

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

From what I've read, wasn't her father a member of the group and was actually in the compound when it was raided and burned?

I think several of her family was in the compound. I believe a sister and possibly an aunt either were not there at the time, or were some of the few that made it out. I believe an aunt left before she had to become one of Koresh's wives, she left her husband and children there. She had very little good to say about Koresh.....

Here's some vid of Melissa doing press tour for Waco...

You, bet. I'll keep my eyes open online to see if I can't find a way to "share" Waco with you

In case you are wondering what Paramount Network is...it's replacing SpikeTV starting today with all new shows and events (like Waco) and former Spike shows like Lip Sync Battle, Ink Master and Bar Rescue along with some movies from the Paramount library, which is over 100 years old, although don't expect to see any of the "Road" pictures with Bob Hope and Bing Crosby!

This is not to be confused with the United Paramount Network or UPN where shows like Moesha and Veronica Mars played.

And Spike TV was once TNN...The Nashville Network, later The National Network

Anyway friend I don't know if I'll ever get to see Waco so if you watch it next week please post your thoughts here particularity on Melissa of course.

For anyone interested, you can download free HD trailer, first look and Inside Waco for free from Vudu if you have an account, which is free to sign up.

Also, you can pre purchase the entire mini series in SD for 9.99, or 16.99 in HDX if you live outside the country and really want to watch it.

You can watch many exclusives including an exclusive with Melissa on the Paramont network.
Melissa Exclusive :

http://www.paramountnetwork.com/video-clips/inezio/waco-melissa-benoist-portrays-david-koresh-s-wife

Network site with loads of vids on the waco series

http://www.paramountnetwork.com/shows/waco

Here's the entire Build Series broadcast from yesterday. The first link is simply Melissa discussing her role. I'm also including the entire broadcast....

Here's some vid of Melissa doing press tour for Waco...

Melissa is so nice and what a smile during that meeting with fans, I know she's mentioned before how it warms her heart to see girls dressed in Supergirl costumes and she seemed taken with the girl who was wearing one in the video.

Anyway friend I don't know if I'll ever get to see Waco so if you watch it next week please post your thoughts here particularity on Melissa of course.

I'm going to bet that it will end up on Amazon, iTunes and Netflix fairly soon....