Everything Waco Thread

Just a comment: Waco takes on two small views of the whole story. There is a larger picture. Did the ATF screw things up? Yes. Was David Koresh a wing nut? Yes. Ws the outcome preordained? Who knows.

This programme is much more sympathetic to the Branch Davidians, than post mortems of the events indicate. The program is riveting, though, because of the superb acting. I find this Koresh very unnervingand that speaks to the actor's performance. I look forward as from what perspective they will end the mini series.

Argo

I watched the first installment last Monday, truly gripping television. I'll be watching the second installment during Supergirl's regular time tonight. I just looked it up and I'm sure this was on purpose, the final installment will air 2/28/2018 exactly 25 years after the siege started on 2/28/1993.

Yep, I'm sure that was totally on purpose. This series has hit me harder than I thought it would have. It's just little things that have really made me rethink this or that....I'm about to start reading the two books that the series is based from....I'm starting with the negotiator's book, I think he probably has a harder time with what happened than most because he has a true understanding of what could have been.......I also find myself realizing just how terrible things really were under the Clinton Administration. I guess because I was just starting my teaching career, my 403b was doing great with the stock market, I was young, stupid, liberal and didn't care about politics.....I don't know, but I just finished "Ghosts of Rwanda" with my students, we also talked about Somalia and what happened 3 weeks before the genocide broke out in Rwanda, we have also talked about Kosovo, and as I went through all of these things I realized just how many times the Clinton administration dropped the ball on so many things...both domestic and foreign. It is really true that history truly writes the book as to how well a President did in their years in office, or how badly. It was just eyeopening.....

I watched the first installment last Monday, truly gripping television. I'll be watching the second installment during Supergirl's regular time tonight. I just looked it up and I'm sure this was on purpose, the final installment will air 2/28/2018 exactly 25 years after the siege started on 2/28/1993.

I thought this was another good episode. It seems to me that, if they could have gotten rid of the two main FBI guys and David, this whole thing most likely would have ended without so many fatalities. And we also are able to see more of how good of a relationship the sheriff had with David. He definitely should have been utilized more in the negotiation process. Man, they really screwed up.

This series is just so compelling to me. But, it's also hard to watch because when I sit and watch these characters, I get so invested in them that I forget that it is not just another fictional show. And then, in the middle of viewing it, I remember the reality of the situation, and that most of these characters will end up dying, and it makes me angry and very sad.

Yes, 9/11 has started the ball rolling, at least between the CIA and FBI, there are still problems with information getting to Homeland Security....the fact that they put FEMA into Homeland Security has really screwed up a lot of information sharing, and FEMA is just one more thing that takes up the valuable time of Homeland Security. Such a stupid move...

The real problem today is there is just not a suitable data base showing who has bought what guns, ammo, etc....where, along with other items to make explosives. It is still only semi-solid within states, not from state to state. The infrastructure is just not in place....and the very fact that government agencies are still using computers that were bought over a decade ago, tells you where the infrastructure is....it is pathetic.

Yep, if we could just get some of the bureaucracy out of government agencies, they might actually function a little more smoothly . And that applies to all types of government agencies.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

Well, even back then, when a Federal warrant was being served, you didn't just have one department serving it....my question was where were the US Marshal's, where was the local police who are supposed to be called in when warrants cross state, Federal etc are being served???? that is protocol that has been in place for a very long time. It was in place then.

It was the ATF's investigation and involved illegal weapons and explosives, which is a federal offense assigned specifically to the ATF branch. Because of that, they had jurisdiction and weren't required to take any local or state agencies to serve the warrant. And yes, sometimes they will out of courtesy contact and utilize them but, there are also many times where there is a willful attempt by various agencies to withhold information, generally because of ego (kind of like a dog peeing on an area to claim it as his). In this case, the show has shown that the ATF was under a lot of pressure to prove that they were still a vital agency that needed adequate gov't funding. Plus, they along with the FBI had just screwed up Ruby Ridge. That attitude going in skewed their investigation and their tactics. And was also most likely the reason why they didn't want to let any other agency in on the bust.

But, as I said, with 9/11 there seems to be more of a willingness among agencies to cooperate because they have seen the benefits and necessity of doing so.

I totally get that it was a government deal, the thing is, they are to have back up from the local authorities when serving a warrant, which is what they were SUPPOSED to be doing....serving a warrant, not going to war.

Yes, 9/11 has started the ball rolling, at least between the CIA and FBI, there are still problems with information getting to Homeland Security....the fact that they put FEMA into Homeland Security has really screwed up a lot of information sharing, and FEMA is just one more thing that takes up the valuable time of Homeland Security. Such a stupid move...

The real problem today is there is just not a suitable data base showing who has bought what guns, ammo, etc....where, along with other items to make explosives. It is still only semi-solid within states, not from state to state. The infrastructure is just not in place....and the very fact that government agencies are still using computers that were bought over a decade ago, tells you where the infrastructure is....it is pathetic.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

Well, even back then, when a Federal warrant was being served, you didn't just have one department serving it....my question was where were the US Marshal's, where was the local police who are supposed to be called in when warrants cross state, Federal etc are being served???? that is protocol that has been in place for a very long time. It was in place then.

It was the ATF's investigation and involved illegal weapons and explosives, which is a federal offense assigned specifically to the ATF branch. Because of that, they had jurisdiction and weren't required to take any local or state agencies to serve the warrant. And yes, sometimes they will out of courtesy contact and utilize them but, there are also many times where there is a willful attempt by various agencies to withhold information, generally because of ego (kind of like a dog peeing on an area to claim it as his). In this case, the show has shown that the ATF was under a lot of pressure to prove that they were still a vital agency that needed adequate gov't funding. Plus, they along with the FBI had just screwed up Ruby Ridge. That attitude going in skewed their investigation and their tactics. And was also most likely the reason why they didn't want to let any other agency in on the bust.

But, as I said, with 9/11 there seems to be more of a willingness among agencies to cooperate because they have seen the benefits and necessity of doing so.

My reason for bringing that up is that it seems his wife and other women, were more afraid of losing their children and I think had the authorities made assurances that that would not happen, and that they only wanted to bring David and others in for questioning and a more through investigation....and allowed the Sheriff's department to bring them in, not Government....I think things would have gone far differently.

Yep, I agree. And along with fear of losing their children, it was also a fear of losing who they were. I thought that one of Melissa's best scenes was early on, when David was telling her that they were going to have to leave and Melissa's response was that her life in the compound was all she ever knew. That was very telling and you had to feel sorry for her because of her fear of possibly having to exist in a life outside of what she had had since childhood.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

Well, even back then, when a Federal warrant was being served, you didn't just have one department serving it....my question was where were the US Marshal's, where was the local police who are supposed to be called in when warrants cross state, Federal etc are being served???? that is protocol that has been in place for a very long time. It was in place then.

Why? The ATF wanted all the glory for this one, they listened to exactly 1 informant who was mad at Koresh based their entire process on him and where he said the guns were stashed. DID NOT even listen to their own agent that had been inside the compound and wanted to show the world that they weren't royal **** ups like what happened at Ruby Ridge....and well, another **** up was born.

My reason for bringing that up is that it seems his wife and other women, were more afraid of losing their children and I think had the authorities made assurances that that would not happen, and that they only wanted to bring David and others in for questioning and a more through investigation....and allowed the Sheriff's department to bring them in, not Government....I think things would have gone far differently.

Yep, I agree. And along with fear of losing their children, it was also a fear of losing who they were. I thought that one of Melissa's best scenes was early on, when David was telling her that they were going to have to leave and Melissa's response was that her life in the compound was all she ever knew. That was very telling and you had to feel sorry for her because of her fear of possibly having to exist in a life outside of what she had had since childhood.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

I think had the children been abused in any way, Thibodeaux would have brought that out in his book....he had nothing to gain from not telling the truth....he saw David for what he was....and it wasn't until he saw so many lies coming out as to what it was like on the inside that he decided to write his book.

I was reading some more on the event and I think that the child abuse explanation was what the FBI told Janet Reno was happening inside the compound in order to justify some of the tactics that they wanted to use. I don't believe that they had a lot of evidence of child abuse beforehand and the basis of their warrant was for the illegal guns and explosives that they thought were in the facility. That said, young girls being sexually abused by David definitely would qualify as child abuse and the other adults that allowed it to happen are complicit in that abuse, I think. Nevertheless, that wasn't the rationale for the raid and definitely doesn't justify the level of force that was used in the raid.

My reason for bringing that up is that it seems his wife and other women, were more afraid of losing their children and I think had the authorities made assurances that that would not happen, and that they only wanted to bring David and others in for questioning and a more through investigation....and allowed the Sheriff's department to bring them in, not Government....I think things would have gone far differently.

Anyone remember the Elian Gonzalez raid, too? With Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elian...wow. Not some good years there.

But, back to Waco. Looking forward to Melissa's acting in these next few heartbreaking episodes. Waco... The story I never realized needed to be told... until now.

I think had the children been abused in any way, Thibodeaux would have brought that out in his book....he had nothing to gain from not telling the truth....he saw David for what he was....and it wasn't until he saw so many lies coming out as to what it was like on the inside that he decided to write his book.

I was reading some more on the event and I think that the child abuse explanation was what the FBI told Janet Reno was happening inside the compound in order to justify some of the tactics that they wanted to use. I don't believe that they had a lot of evidence of child abuse beforehand and the basis of their warrant was for the illegal guns and explosives that they thought were in the facility. That said, young girls being sexually abused by David definitely would qualify as child abuse and the other adults that allowed it to happen are complicit in that abuse, I think. Nevertheless, that wasn't the rationale for the raid and definitely doesn't justify the level of force that was used in the raid.

How was Melissa's performance in Episode 3?. Did Rachel get much story in the episode?.

She's great in anything she does. There was a scene where they were crying over their father, suddenly one of the B. Davidians tried sneaking IN to the compound during the firefight, and they shot him. Just Melissa's simple flinching as you could hear them shooting, was perfect. She's just so dang good at even the little nuances.

It is those little things that she does that puts her heads above most actors on TV today. These director's saw it, Kevin Smith almost had a fangasm over it....and I think that is probably what got her the part of Supergirl.

How was Melissa's performance in Episode 3?. Did Rachel get much story in the episode?.

She's great in anything she does. There was a scene where they were crying over their father, suddenly one of the B. Davidians tried sneaking IN to the compound during the firefight, and they shot him. Just Melissa's simple flinching as you could hear them shooting, was perfect. She's just so dang good at even the little nuances.

How was Melissa's performance in Episode 3?. Did Rachel get much story in the episode?.

She didn't appear as much as she did in Episode 2 but, she was good in what she was in, I thought. Most of Episode 3 was spent with the first encounter between the ATF and the Davidians which involved a lot of screen time on the fire fight, it's initial aftermath and the appearance of the FBI.

"It wasn't police carrying this out at that time, it was the ATF..."

I meant it as the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms) being a law enforcement agency, not under military's jurisdiction. I'm assuming ATF first took "lead" due to the firearms stash. Then what we began to see in last episode was how operations were taken over by two separate teams of FBI--the negotiator vs. hostage rescue. SURE hope they have sense cleaned up how they operate between one another--learn from their mistakes, right? Even with lessons learned from 9/11, still sounds like agencies aren't talking as much as they should. Example: the gunman who shot up the church in Sutherland Springs should never have been sold a gun due to the fact that he had been court marshaled. There's another recent shooter, I can't remember which one, that one of the gun shop owners felt uneasy about him--I believe the fact the shooter wanted body armor along with AR-15--so the shop owner notified FBI, but it went no where.

The Sutherland Springs incident was a total screw up of unbelievable magnitude by the military, and they have found 100's of other of their screw ups and are now taking care of those. Agencies not talking with each other has been a huge problem. Not having enough interpreters to interpret chatter from around the world has been a problem. The fact that the 2nd Amendment was written in a time where the gun you used took you minutes to load and shoot, rather than 3 minutes to kill 50 people...and people still scream about their 2nd :Amendment rights when lawmakers talk about banning a device that turns a semi-automatic into an automatic.....*shakes head* it is just amazing.

"It wasn't police carrying this out at that time, it was the ATF..."

I meant it as the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms) being a law enforcement agency, not under military's jurisdiction. I'm assuming ATF first took "lead" due to the firearms stash. Then what we began to see in last episode was how operations were taken over by two separate teams of FBI--the negotiator vs. hostage rescue. SURE hope they have since cleaned up how they operate between one another--learn from their mistakes, right? Even with lessons learned from 9/11, still sounds like agencies aren't talking as much as they should. Example: the gunman who shot up the church in Sutherland Springs should never have been sold a gun due to the fact that he had been court marshaled. There's another recent shooter, I can't remember which one, that one of the gun shop owners felt uneasy about him--I believe the fact the shooter wanted body armor along with AR-15--so the shop owner notified FBI, but it went no where.

Been doing some more reading. Yep....Kelly and Sully are correct. Looks like they did try to employ military tactics. Apparently Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark is rumored to have had involvement--though he still downplays his roll. I think where I was misunderstanding the situation came from the fact that it was "police officers" carrying out moves generally made by the military. In my readings, it appears officers were "trained" at Ft. Hood. However, how much training did they actually get? Obviously not enough because the execution of their moves turned out to be a hot mess.

So, my absolute apologies to Sully and Kelly. I happily stand corrected.

It wasn't police carrying this out at that time, it was the ATF, another problem that I had with it was the fact that they DID NOT bring in the Sherrif's department, the Waco Police Department, US Marshalls, or Texas Rangers...they could have brought any or all of those, and this would not have happened. That is another reason why this is categorized as a military action by so many....you don't keep secrets from the local agencies when serving a warrant, you bring them with you. Now, from this point on we will get the FBI POV from the negotiator, what he wrote in his book. Thus far inside the compound we have been getting the POV from actual phone conversations, radio, as well ad Tibodeaux's (young drummer guy, married to Rachel's sister) from what he wrote in his book.

And the very fact that the ATF confiscated the film footage from the (news guy that THEY ASKED TO BE THERE) tells you they knew they royally screwed up.

AGAIN, none of this wipes out what David Koresh was doing....and IMO, the lawyer inside the compound was wrong and scared the women with children the most. IMO, had David given himself up, along with probably may 4 - 5 of the other men, They would have gone in, seen that all guns and ammunition were legal...they had absolutely no history of violence from this group. He (David) had a good relationship with the local law enforcement. Had they gone at it that way, allowing the Sheriff to take David in......this would have never happened. They could have continued their lives....I think had the children been abused in any way, Thibodeaux would have brought that out in his book....he had nothing to gain from not telling the truth....he saw David for what he was....and it wasn't until he saw so many lies coming out as to what it was like on the inside that he decided to write his book.

And we are now going to get a clearer picture on law enforcement side from the negotiator's own account of what happened through these last 3 episodes.

Been doing some more reading. Yep....Kelly and Sully are correct. Looks like they did try to employ military tactics. Apparently Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark is rumored to have had involvement--though he still downplays his roll. I think where I was misunderstanding the situation came from the fact that it was "police officers" carrying out moves generally made by the military. In my readings, it appears officers were "trained" at Ft. Hood. However, how much training did they actually get? Obviously not enough because the execution of their moves turned out to be a hot mess.

So, my absolute apologies to Sully and Kelly. I happily stand corrected.

I had no problem with what the radio DJ said that was one thing that my friends and I actually talked about at the time that it happened . The helicopters were supposed to just be there as cover as the ground moved in that's military action that's military planning and then when it escalated they fired from the helicopters as well that's not police planning that's military planning it was way over-the-top . That is nothing to do with the right or wrong going on inside that compound that's totally separate from any of that . And for the ATF who asked for the news camera to be their knew they screwed up that's why they took the camera in the field and only released a portion of it they knew they screwed up. That was just a mess .