Everything Waco Thread

interview with Melissa about waco

First hour was kind of slow, but most docu-dramas are like that so I wasn't really surprised. However, the acting is excellent....to me it was the FBI dude (not the negotiator) that was the slime ball.

First hour was kind of slow, but most docu-dramas are like that so I wasn't really surprised. However, the acting is excellent....to me it was the FBI dude (not the negotiator) that was the slime ball.

Him, too. But the slime ball comment was more directed to Koresh "accepting" the "burden" to take on the roll of sole reproducer. Lol

I thought this was a really interesting start to the series. I liked that they gave us the scenes with Ruby Ridge as a precursor to Waco to help provide some background that, I'm guessing, will be an influence in the actions the FBI, ATF and the Waco residents going forward. I can't remember all of the details of Waco and I had actually forgotten about Ruby Ridge until they showed it. But, I can recall an atmosphere that depicted the Waco residents as just plain crazy. So, seeing the events at Ruby Ridge and the questioning of the FBI behavior by the FBI negotiator is a real eye-opener for me.

I was doing a little more reading on Koresh and the Branch Davidians and the way the two entities merged and developed was really fascinating. I would highly recommend reading on it, if one has the time and inclination to do so.

Him, too. But the slime ball comment was more directed to Koresh "accepting" the "burden" to take on the roll of sole reproducer. Lol

Poor guy. Such a sacrifice on his part

I thought that, too, about them including Ruby Ridge. Good background 411. They actually alluded last night that IT was the reason they jumped on Mt. Carmel the way they did. Remember how one of the agents, after realizing the Branch Davidians had amassed a huge arsenal, said they would have things ready to go "next week," but slime ball FBI head said, "No...have it ready by tonight?" I think they rushed the whole thing and ended up being overly heavy handed, I think, as a direct reaction to the failures of Ruby Ridge.

I will say, this first episode did a really good job making you want to ummm... firmly express yourself to the tv, "What is wrong with you people?" lol They weren't forced to stay, didn't suffer from Stockholm Syndrom, and didn't appear to be socially inept. On the contrary, some were once rich, well traveled, educated (one from Harvard, another with a doctorate, etc etc).

I know that in one of the interviews with Melissa and the Waco crew, they mention that these people were everyday citizens, not crazed lunatics like we were led to believe. I think that Koresh's opening sermon gives a good insight into why this type of situation happens. I can't remember what he said exactly but, he pressed upon the point that even with everything those people had it wasn't enough. They still weren't happy. They were missing something in their lives, answers, meaning, companionship, what have you and they found those items by being part of a group of people who were searching for a similar thing. And from what we've seen so far, the actual members of the group seemed like good, well-meaning individuals with a common belief. Once they found what they were looking for, it didn't take much for someone as charismatic as Koresh to step in and manipulate the situation. It's really not that uncommon.

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Most of what you see in the movie as far as what was happening INSIDE the compound before and during the seige is from Tibodeaux's book....he is the young guy that Koresh brought in...the drummer from the bar.

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Yes, I'm not condoning what they did, just explaining how easy it is to become manipulated into believing or acting in a way that is questionable.

Ive heard so many conflicted stories on that David himself strongly denied it as did other Davidians other than the 4 who left [their a story in itslef]In fact one of the accusers admitted he lied about it coz he wanted David's position and thought of himself as a Phrophet

I don't know that David would be a very reliable source. But, based on the ages of the young women and the children, if nothing else, there had to be child abuse and/or statutory rape involved. It would be very easy to prove one way or another if they had the DNA of the children involved.

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Yes, I'm not condoning what they did, just explaining how easy it is to become manipulated into believing or acting in a way that is questionable.

Ive heard so many conflicted stories on that David himself strongly denied it as did other Davidians other than the 4 who left [their a story in itslef]In fact one of the accusers admitted he lied about it coz he wanted David's position and thought of himself as a Phrophet

I don't know that David would be a very reliable source. But, based on the ages of the young women and the children, if nothing else, there had to be child abuse and/or statutory rape involved. It would be very easy to prove one way or another if they had the DNA of the children involved.

This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies

The fact that Rachel married at 14 and her sister had a child at 14 would be enough to be concerning to child and protective services. (There's a certain judge who just ran for the US Senate that has the distinction of being labeled a child molester for "dating" a 14 year old, rightfully so in my mind). Added to that, the compound had no running water with a large number of people living there. So, those factors alone would be all that they would need to send child services in to do a welfare check.

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Yes, I'm not condoning what they did, just explaining how easy it is to become manipulated into believing or acting in a way that is questionable.

Ive heard so many conflicted stories on that David himself strongly denied it as did other Davidians other than the 4 who left [their a story in itslef]In fact one of the accusers admitted he lied about it coz he wanted David's position and thought of himself as a Phrophet

I don't know that David would be a very reliable source. But, based on the ages of the young women and the children, if nothing else, there had to be child abuse and/or statutory rape involved. It would be very easy to prove one way or another if they had the DNA of the children involved.

This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies

The fact that Rachel married at 14 and her sister had a child at 14 would be enough to be concerning to child and protective services. (There's a certain judge who just ran for the US Senate that has the distinction of being labeled a child molester for "dating" a 14 year old, rightfully so in my mind). Added to that, the compound had no running water with a large number of people living there. So, those factors alone would be all that they would need to send child services in to do a welfare check.

I think I heard or read somewhere that CPS had made visits....I could be wrong.

"This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies."

Rachel... Married at age 14 after having left home so quickly, she was still in her pajamas. Statutory rape. Case closed on that one. Couple that with then having young children in the same "home" as a proven child rapist, under unusual circumstances? Why so angry?

Welp... Being I live in Utah (yes, I am Mormon. No we don't practice polygamy ), we DO have quite a few students in our school who have escaped the Warren Jeff's community located about 3.5 hours south of here. No, he's not Mormon... They're FLDS... Fundamentalist LDS.

ANYway... The students I have had who escaped, a few had been married at 13 and 14. And I have had some of the young men who had escaped, as well. ALL of them have struggled socially, emotionally, and mentally. They're struggling to adjust to "the outside world"." Though, I've noted the boys are MUCH quicker to adjust. They're usually quite behind in schooling, as well. Two of my students were on tv quite a bit when they escaped--even appearing on Dr. Phil a few years ago. One of the sisters couldn't adjust, and escaped her mother's and made her way back to the polygamist community.

I've seen similarities between the two groups. But, with how the group's been portrayed on Waco... they do seem a bit more grounded...minus, of course, Koresh. We shall see.

Well, to be clear.....I don't equate either of those groups with LDS. I have several friends who are Mormon and they are as richly spiritual as any Southern Baptist, Catholic, etc that I have ever known....I don't agree with them on everything, but I also don't agree with my SB and Catholic friends either on everything. I would probably be considered a Deist if I sat down long enough with someone to pick my spiritual brain.

I guess for me, what I'm trying to say is.....I have for so many years tried very hard to teach myself, and my students to learn about other beliefs, cultures, etc without falling into a ethnocentrism type of thinking, and so that just finds its way into how I view things, and it finds its way into how I view shows, movies, etc as well....sometimes without even realizing it, I may come off as unfeeling, and that's not it at all....I found myself wondering what these people's lives would have been like had they not all died in that fire, and without David Koresh in their lives.

Your information on those students and their experiences is really interesting, Evrafter.

I live in an area that is almost surrounded by Old Order Amish, who obviously live very strict religious lives. To see how they live, it's hard to imagine why any would choose to live in that way, especially the females. And, all teens actually have the opportunity to leave when they are older but, many choose to stay. I know of a few who have left and like your students, Evrafter, they have a difficult time adjusting to the English way of life. Many times, they end up going back to the order.

Completely agree with you Kelly that it is about understanding that there are different cultures and that we have to be open-minded in examining their rituals - to a point. When it begins to violate basic human rights, then that is where I draw the line in being open-minded. I also think that when you're born into a culture, such as the ones that we have been discussing, it becomes your norm. So, that's why young people such as Rachel and her sister end up making the choices that they made.

Emsmomm- thank you for that information. So her dad was there and was killed prior to the fire. Plus, it sounds like he had a pretty high standing within the group. Do you know what happened to mom?

Actually, as with Warren Jeffs... I don't blame the people. I blame the leader. So in the end... I feel for the Branch Davidians. Good people. Warped leader. But, pretty sure that's how much of history has been. As I teach my students all the time, especially my AP art History kids since we talk quite a bit about religious history, especially during the Renaissance and Early Christian period...don't blame religion based upon humans acting on human weaknesses. The same would need to be said for those at Mt. Carmel... good people following a very misguided, leader who probably started off with good intentions, and perhaps allowed himself to feed on power. Having grown up in the South as a Mormon, I've certainly had my head touched a few times as misguided people searched for my horns--no joke...a particular church teaches we are spawns of Satan, literally, with horns. They always seemed disappointed when I didn't have any. I would always say they only come out at night, then wink. I've told that story to many of my classes as I teach them about tolerance of others, and to understand sometimes we humans are misinformed by good meaning people. And that we should be celebrating each other's differences. But, as in the case of Koresh, I think we will see he was led by his own desires, and need to "rule." Sounds like the FBI agent in charge may have been much the same.

Actually, as with Warren Jeffs... I don't blame the people. I blame the leader. So in the end... I feel for the Branch Davidians. Good people. Warped leader. But, pretty sure that's how much of history has been. As I teach my students all the time, especially my AP art History kids since we talk quite a bit about religious history, especially during the Renaissance and Early Christian period...don't blame religion based upon humans acting on human weaknesses. The same would need to be said for those at Mt. Carmel... good people following a very misguided, leader who probably started off with good intentions, and perhaps allowed himself to feed on power. Having grown up in the South as a Mormon, I've certainly had my head touched a few times as misguided people searched for my horns--no joke...a particular church teaches we are spawns of Satan, literally, with horns. They always seemed disappointed when I didn't have any. I would always say they only come out at night, then wink. I've told that story to many of my classes as I teach them about tolerance of others, and to understand sometimes we humans are misinformed by good meaning people. And that we should be celebrating each other's differences. But, as in the case of Koresh, I think we will see he was led by his own desires, and need to "rule." Sounds like the FBI agent in charge may have been much the same.

That is what I've concluded from all of it...

Sully......I believe Rachel's mom still lives outside of Waco along with several other brothers and sisters. Rachel died in the fire along with her sister and brother (as well as her 2 children and her sister's 2 children). The Joneses were devoted followers of Koresh and probably his core family but I am not sure her mother and the other siblings lived at the complex with Perry, Rachel and her brother and sister.

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Exactly, all she had to go on was her discussions with Tibodeaux as well as pictures. Damn, she has her look down to a science. But, according to Tibodeaux she really did capture the essence of who and what Rachel was....it is amazing how they have used almost to the seating positions of the congregation...actual footage of him preaching. It has been very well done IMO….

Ive noticed a lot of great attention to detail in the show right down to the near exact newspaper headline and picture,even how windy it was at the time

Well, they chose a good area of New Mexico to use....it's windy there pretty much all the time, and its the same in Central Texas...well most all of Texas really.... LOL

After tonight's episode, I have to still stand by my initial thoughts... those kids were in harm's way at Mt. Carmel.

From our initial discussion, I came to understand Rachel's marriage. Didn't agree with it, but... legal. But the sister? Married also to Koresh and sex at 12?? Nope... Definitely not cool, nor legal. And we saw how they were all ok with covering it up by asking Tibs to "marry" the sister? That to me proves that at ANY point, David, and possibly even Rachel, could say he/she had a "revelation" and ANY child was in danger of becoming the next wife? For ME? That shows child services had cause to remove the children from the home. What if Koresh had a vision that he must sacrifice a "lamb" like Abraham was called to do... and then said it was revealed which child should be the sacrificial lamb? From what I've seen, thus far... Pretty sure Koresh would get anything from his followers that he "preached" should be given.