CW Crisis on Infinite Earths

Kiwi, I love your idea of the Crossover actually STARTING the season for the Arrowverse, and your reasoning for so doing.

Here's a possible interesting scene: Kara and Red Daughter fighting along side one another, one of them sacrifices herself, but we aren't quite sure which one it is, we see reactions from everyone, especially Alex who doesn't know if she lost her sister or not. That takes care of having two Kara's, while ALSO still getting the Supergirl Sacrificing Herself scene from Crisis.

I think the Faustian bargain Oliver made with the Monitor will be the major impact for CoIE. IMHO, despite the comics, it will not be Supergirl and the Flash. Returned from the dead will be complicated in these shows, unless they are different Karas and Barrys. I really believe Oliver’s deal is the key to this crossover.

Argo

Another possibility is that the CoIE storyline will take up all shows next year starting in Autumn 2019 and, although each series will be filmed separately as stand-alone shows, they will all have threads that tie each into one-another in order to eventually merge all of the currently existing universes/timelines.

Thinking about this and Captain Past's comment in the Elseworlds Finale Recap news item "In reading the discussion here, many readers have interpreted Crisis on infiinite earths as being next year's crossover. I thought it was going to be an entire season show, meaning it could end in late Spring."


I definitely hope they don't do anything like that with the Crisis Story-line. It would take a mammoth effort between all the shows writing team's to co-ordinate everything. Each Individual show (Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl and LoT) needs to forge it's own identity and not be tied into the others. I think they have sown enough seeds to just have Crisis on Infinite Earths as a 4 episode crossover event.

I agree, Kiwi. I think that it's too big of a task to accomplish effectively. The small, three-night cross-overs that they've had with Supergirl have been very messy with plots tied too loosely together and too many characters vying for a place in the story. So, I don't have a great deal of confidence that the amount of coordination that it would take to pull off a season-long story, or even bits of it tied into the existing season of Supergirl, could be done effectively. And I also agree with you that each show needs to retain its own identity. Which is one of the reasons why, no matter what happens with the CoIE story, I hope that Supergirl's earth remains separate from the others.

I do agree that Crisis on Earth X was the best crossover, and that Supergirl had a larger role in it, than the other two crossovers. However, we still got more action with Flash and Arrow, as they were attempting to escape Earth X. I guess my issue is that they always seem to find a reason to take Supergirl off the board.

In "Invasion", Green Arrow benched her.
In "Crisis on Earth X", she was captured and strapped to a medical bed for an episode and a half.
In "Elseworlds", she came into the plot later than Arrow and Flash, and was placed in a cell for the bulk of the 3rd episode.

In a sense, I get it. She's seemingly the most overpowered character, so they take her off the board to make the odds against the heroes seem more realistic. But in Elseworlds, that was unnecessary. Along the lines with what Brierrose said, they could have used Supergirl, more, in place of Superman. His role in part 1 was fun. And you could have still had "Evil Superman" in part 3. But I would have rather had Supergirl vs Evil Superman instead of Superman vs Evil Superman.

That said, I hope Superman is in CoIE, just due to the source material. But I definitely want Supergirl to get the focus she deserves.

I don't want Supergirl's 100th episode anywhere, in anyway near the crossover. Already far too many characters in the crossover. I want her 100th all Supergirl.

Amen, sista!!

Hmmm... Just finished rewatching Elseworlds. And now, I'm not really convinced Oliver is going to die, nor am I really convinced he actually traded his life for Kara and Barry's.

Right after the scene with the Monitor asking Oliver what did Oliver propose as a trade to keep the balance, immediately we are transported to the scene of Degal (spelling??) with the book re-rewriting everything, fighting off our super crew, eventually with Oliver arriving back on the scene. He pulls an arrow out. Note the tip--it's shimmering with a blue light. And, when said arrow strikes the book and it drops to the ground, not only does light stop coming from the pages, the pages actually appear to die and decay--becoming brown and brittle looking. Seems to me, Oliver asking to destroy (take the life from) the book, rather than asking the Monitor to give the book to him, is a fair trade, a great "balance" to offset changing Kara and Barry's destiny. In fact, by destroying the book, everything on Earth 1 returns back to normal--balance restored.

Also... just thought of this...trading his ONE life doesn't offset saving Kara AND Barry's TWO lives. The death of such a powerful book seems more like it.

And finally, one of the last things we see is Barry and Oliver at the bar. Barry tries to tell Oliver that Oliver's a good man, to which Barry replies, "I'm not as good as you think I am, but because of you, I think I'll get there someday." Doesn't sound like a man who thinks he's going to die anytime soon. I know he later proposes a toast that they appreciate what they have *pause* "however long you may have it"....but I can't help but feel perhaps the writers threw that in there as a red herring. lol

Hmmmmm. Can't wait for season 5 and the crossover.

Really looking forward to season five, still not excited for the crossover. They seem to be throwing everyone and the kitchen sink into an already full cast. Most importantly I don't want my shows blown up for the sake of Arrow's sendoff. As to weather Oliver will die, your post reminded me of something I read when I did some surface level reading on CoIE. I remembered reading about characters that survived but didn't remain on Earth and after some searching was able to find it. In the comics Superboy-Prime joins Alexander Luthor, Jr., Kal-L, and his wife Lois Lane in a "paradise dimension". Maybe in this version that's where Oliver goes. Oliver wanted to change Kara and Barry's destinies as written in that book so he asked for a way to destroy the book. The Monitor could've been intrigued/impressed that Oliver didn't want the book's powers for himself. The Monitor gave Oliver a chance to change his friends destinies but at the expense of his own. The deal was in exchange for the arrow that could destroy the book the Monitor said if Oliver survives the coming Crisis he can't stay on Earth. Oliver agreed to that but added that Felicity would be given a choice to join him in the "paradise dimension". That would explain the scene we saw with Felicity and the Monitor, she stayed on Earth for her daughter but once Mia was grown she went to join Oliver. Side note I still don't get why Emily Bett Rickards decided to leave with 10 episodes left.

I don't want Supergirl's 100th episode anywhere, in anyway near the crossover. Already far too many characters in the crossover. I want her 100th all Supergirl

Could not agree more!! With the 100th being episode 13 and the crossover likely episode 9 it should be far enough away. I'm thinking episode 13 will air 3/1/2020.

Hmmm... Just finished rewatching Elseworlds. And now, I'm not really convinced Oliver is going to die, nor am I really convinced he actually traded his life for Kara and Barry's.

Right after the scene with the Monitor asking Oliver what did Oliver propose as a trade to keep the balance, immediately we are transported to the scene of Degal (spelling??) with the book re-rewriting everything, fighting off our super crew, eventually with Oliver arriving back on the scene. He pulls an arrow out. Note the tip--it's shimmering with a blue light. And, when said arrow strikes the book and it drops to the ground, not only does light stop coming from the pages, the pages actually appear to die and decay--becoming brown and brittle looking. Seems to me, Oliver asking to destroy (take the life from) the book, rather than asking the Monitor to give the book to him, is a fair trade, a great "balance" to offset changing Kara and Barry's destiny. In fact, by destroying the book, everything on Earth 1 returns back to normal--balance restored.

Also... just thought of this...trading his ONE life doesn't offset saving Kara AND Barry's TWO lives. The death of such a powerful book seems more like it.

And finally, one of the last things we see is Barry and Oliver at the bar. Barry tries to tell Oliver that Oliver's a good man, to which Barry replies, "I'm not as good as you think I am, but because of you, I think I'll get there someday." Doesn't sound like a man who thinks he's going to die anytime soon. I know he later proposes a toast that they appreciate what they have *pause* "however long you may have it"....but I can't help but feel perhaps the writers threw that in there as a red herring. lol

Hmmmmm. Can't wait for season 5 and the crossover.

Yes, the possibility of the audience going for the obvious interpretation and the writers serving up something else entirely is a distinct possibility.

The 2040 timeline as presented last season in Arrow indicates that the world thinks Oliver is dead, but they played it pretty cagily. Rather annoyingly so.

Hmmm... Just finished rewatching Elseworlds. And now, I'm not really convinced Oliver is going to die, nor am I really convinced he actually traded his life for Kara and Barry's.

Right after the scene with the Monitor asking Oliver what did Oliver propose as a trade to keep the balance, immediately we are transported to the scene of Degal (spelling??) with the book re-rewriting everything, fighting off our super crew, eventually with Oliver arriving back on the scene. He pulls an arrow out. Note the tip--it's shimmering with a blue light. And, when said arrow strikes the book and it drops to the ground, not only does light stop coming from the pages, the pages actually appear to die and decay--becoming brown and brittle looking. Seems to me, Oliver asking to destroy (take the life from) the book, rather than asking the Monitor to give the book to him, is a fair trade, a great "balance" to offset changing Kara and Barry's destiny. In fact, by destroying the book, everything on Earth 1 returns back to normal--balance restored.

Also... just thought of this...trading his ONE life doesn't offset saving Kara AND Barry's TWO lives. The death of such a powerful book seems more like it.

And finally, one of the last things we see is Barry and Oliver at the bar. Barry tries to tell Oliver that Oliver's a good man, to which Barry replies, "I'm not as good as you think I am, but because of you, I think I'll get there someday." Doesn't sound like a man who thinks he's going to die anytime soon. I know he later proposes a toast that they appreciate what they have *pause* "however long you may have it"....but I can't help but feel perhaps the writers threw that in there as a red herring. lol

Hmmmmm. Can't wait for season 5 and the crossover.

Looks to be the biggest crossover yet.

Looks to be the biggest crossover yet.

The attached article from Variety confirms 3 episodes in late 2019 (December) and 2 episodes in early 2020 (January). I assume LoT's Season 5 premiere will be one of the January episodes but which show will be the other?. Will it be Arrow's series finale?.

Some artwork was released at The CW's upfront presentation and it's pretty cool they have Supergirl flying .

It's worth noting that this is a mash up of existing promotional materials. With flash likely getting a new costume next season, Batwoman updates and Melissa's new hair cut, a real Crisis image will be made. I think they just needed something for today's presentation.

I think the Faustian bargain Oliver made with the Monitor will be the major impact for CoIE. IMHO, despite the comics, it will not be Supergirl and the Flash. Returned from the dead will be complicated in these shows, unless they are different Karas and Barrys. I really believe Oliver’s deal is the key to this crossover.

Argo

Yep.......Arrow is going to out in a blaze of glory.

I think the Faustian bargain Oliver made with the Monitor will be the major impact for CoIE. IMHO, despite the comics, it will not be Supergirl and the Flash. Returned from the dead will be complicated in these shows, unless they are different Karas and Barrys. I really believe Oliver’s deal is the key to this crossover.

Argo

Yep.......Arrow is going to out in a blaze of glory.

I have no doubt that Oliver's bargain will impact their fates, overall. However, I still think Supergirl and Flash will "die". I say that because Oliver is simply physically incapable of taking their places and doing what they did when they sacrificed themselves, in the comics. He can't go toe-to-toe with the Anti-Monitor. He can't run fast enough to counter the energy of an anti-matter cannon. He simply cannot do what Barry and Kara can. And even if he could, he can't sacrifice himself twice (once for each of them).

However, CoIE ends in a "reboot" of the universe/multiverse, of sorts. I think that, somehow (perhaps by surviving until the end), Oliver will have a hand in how things are shaped in that reboot, and by sacrificing himself, somehow make sure Barry and Kara are brought back, unlike the rebooted universe from the comics, where Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El stayed dead for decades.

In the comics, Supergirl and Flash have enormous roles in this event. Green Arrow does not. That kinda makes him the "wild card", because we won't know what his real role in the overall event will be (especially with his show ending). However (and I've said this before), NOT including those powerful scenes of Supergirl and Flash's sacrifices not only reduces their role in the event, but is also a disservice to the characters and all that they stand for. Their deaths weren't just quick casualties at the hands of villains. They were decisions that each of them made to sacrifice themselves so others may live. And it's those types of decisions that have defined these two characters. Especially Supergirl, who has been prepared to just give her life away to save the planet on multiple occasions. This is another reason I don't want them to swap Supergirl's death with Superman, instead. Because this kind of sacrifice DEFINES the character of Supergirl, and swapping those fates would be yet another disservice to her character, with the Man of Steel stealing her thunder, once again.

I believe (and hope) that Oliver will bear witness to Kara and Barry's respective sacrifices, and it will eat at him. He sees them as not only friends, but sees himself as a mentor to them, as he has been at the "hero" game longer than them either of them. And as we saw in Elseworlds, he considers them both to be better people than him. He believes them to be genuinely good people. I believe Oliver's sacrifice will not be to prevent their deaths, but rather to reverse them in the "reboot", in the final act of the crossover.

Personally, Supergirl dying/almost dying has lost most if not all of its impact through repetition. ("Oh, this is where she gets beaten to death--again..."

I would be against an extended absence for the character, as we hardly got enough of her in this season!

I suppose one of the reasons I'm okay with a temporary death is because the "near death" has only happened twice, and was never done particularly well. We had the potential for it, with Reign. But the follow up episode, which should have been about everyone's emotional reaction to Supergirl's defeat, was completely botched.

And as great as "Red Dawn" was, the intensity of that fight did not seem to warrant the "near death" that resulted from it.

As for an extended absence for Melissa, there are SO many ways to explore that time. As I said, you could have one "anthology" style episode, where citizens of the city are remembering different times when Supergirl saved them. So Melissa could be there for that.

You could also have another "Midvale" flashback episode, as Alex and Eliza remember Kara.

Then you have an episode about crime ticking up, as people try to take advantage of Supergirl's absence.

I suppose the main reason I want the "death" isn't just to see Supergirl die, or anything like that. I want the EMOTIONAL impact from the rest of the characters, and the world at large, as they think their hero has fallen. Not just Alex, but Lena, James, Brainy, Nia, Eliza...people she's saved in the past, like that girl who was part of the Cult of Rao. It explores the impact Supergirl has had on both her loved ones, and the world. Not to mention the immediate reactions from the other heroes involved in the "Crisis". In the comic series, Supergirl was the first major casualty. And seeing the type of impact that has on Oliver, Barry, and even Clark, could provide some really wonderful dramatic scenes.

This type of emotional fallout is something we haven't gotten with either of Supergirl's previous two near-death experiences.

I'm torn on whether there should be a "death of Supergirl" arc or not. As I have said before I do not have the extensive knowledge of comic canon and history as many of you, and crossovers in general are not my favorite thing. Outside of what I have learned from reading posts on this site, I have almost no knowledge of the history of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Nevertheless I respect the arguments made by kdogg and others, and their points are well taken. But on the other hand the reason I watch is because of Melissa and her interpretation of this character. Supergirl being sidelined in favor of other characters has been and remains a problem for me. I'd watch, but I really don't see myself having the same level of interest in a series of episodes without her, no matter how few or how compelling the story arc might be. Melissa and Supergirl are what make the show for me. So I am about 60:40 in favor of no Supergirl death arc.

@Brierrose, LibertyPrime, and others.

You're making it very clear what you DON'T want in CoIE. So I suppose my next question would be what do you want to see, instead? What would you do with Supergirl and other characters, so that this event still holds the impact it needs to, without those iconic scenes? I mean, it's very clear at this point that we're not going to agree about what we want from this event, and that's totally okay. Differing opinions and ideas, presented in respectful fashion, is why I love this forum. But I'm very interested in hearing what you would do instead, beyond the blankest statement of "We want more Supergirl" (which I also want). What would you do to cut those scenes and moments, but still ensure that this event carries the weight and impact that it's very name carries with it?

Also of note, I get that they used the "pose" for about 3 seconds back in season two. But to me, this event isn't about the pose from the comic cover. It's about the huge events, impacts, and character moments that lead to those iconic images.

Apologies about the excessive posts. I'm obviously really passionate about this story, and am over-the-moon that it's actually being produced.

Over on Flash they seem to be setting up a scenario where at the end of the third installment the other characters will think Barry's dead. This article from CinimaBlend argues that Flash is focusing too much in CoIE at the expense of the villain Bloodwork. For me it's kinda pointless because we as an audience know Barry Allen as played by Grant isn't going to die because the show will be continuing with him as the lead. If Barry "dies" at the end of the third installment of CoIE realistically how long can he stay that way, most of the fourth installment somewhere into the fifth installment. What does having Barry "die" for a short time really accomplish other than taking Grant out of the picture for an episode or more. Are the EPs on Flash spending too much time writing a check that everyone knows won't be cashed.

Figured I'd bump this thread since production has started.

If I were to venture an educated guess, based on the scale and number of shows and actors involved, filming of this particular crossover may go until the end of October, if not farther.

Really excited to see the official promotional material as we inch closer to this event.

Question for folks...

Do we mind discussing events from the Crisis comic books? Or are we afraid that may count as possible spoilers for the TV event?

Hmmm....perhaps Oliver isn't going to die after all?

https://www.tvguide.com/news/stephen-amell-not-done-with-oliver-queen-arrowverse/