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  4. Tuesday, 11 December 2018
Crisis on Infinite Earths

Elseworlds part 3 has not aired at my timezone just yet, but CW Crisis on Infinite Earths is reportedly confirmed (I have yet to see that).

The good news is that this means Supergirl will very likely have a Season 5.

However I hope they don't kill her off just like in the comics. The crossover will likely fall on the 96th or 97th Season 5 episode of Supergirl. If they're trying to set a 100th episode milestone for Supergirl, then she can't be killed off (I think).

Thoughts?

:)
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Part of the reason Supergirl was killed in the original Crisis is that they wanted to get back to the idea of Kal-El being the last survivor of Krypton. That not being a concern at the moment, I believe Kara will be hanging around for a while yet.

Personally, I fear more for Oliver Queen.
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There is a lot of expectation with this crossover. They can't afford to give it the "Flashpoint" treatment, and botch it.

Part of the reason Crisis on Infinite Earths carries so much weight is BECAUSE of the deaths of both Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El. For this reason...I feel those events need to happen. There are certain story beats that NEED to take place. And seeing those deaths will carry an incredible emotional impact.

Barry sacrifices himself to save literally every universe. Supergirl sacrifices herself to save Superman. In particular, I can see her doing that because, by the time this takes place, Clark will have an infant child.

These sacrifices carry weight.

However (and I said this in the comments of the episode recap), that doesn't mean the deaths need to stick. CoIE ended in a reboot of the universe. Barry and/or Kara could be revived when that happens.

I have other theories, as well. But I'm going to keep those to myself. We may have writers in our forum, from time to time. Who knows? I'd hate for them to change a plot twist just because somebody guessed it was going to happen.

But yes. I think Barry and Kara's sacrifices NEED to happen. Without them, this Crisis will not live up to it's name, and will fail to carry the weight of it's comic counterpart.
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Part of the reason Crisis on Infinite Earths carries so much weight is BECAUSE of the deaths of both Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El. For this reason...I feel those events need to happen. There are certain story beats that NEED to take place. And seeing those deaths will carry an incredible emotional impact.

I think the writers laid their cards on the table to a degree. It was written in the Book of Destiny that Barry and Kara would have to die. But Oliver objected to that. The Monitor asked what he thought should be done instead. Earlier, Superman had said rewriting destiny comes with a price. I think they might be telegraphing a different resolution.
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Part of the reason Crisis on Infinite Earths carries so much weight is BECAUSE of the deaths of both Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El. For this reason...I feel those events need to happen. There are certain story beats that NEED to take place. And seeing those deaths will carry an incredible emotional impact.

I think the writers laid their cards on the table to a degree. It was written in the Book of Destiny that Barry and Kara would have to die. But Oliver objected to that. The Monitor asked what he thought should be done instead. Earlier, Superman had said rewriting destiny comes with a price. I think they might be telegraphing a different resolution.


Perhaps. But that only spared them from THIS event, because even Oliver knew they were the best bet for surviving the oncoming Crisis.

Like I said, I don't think their deaths will be permanent. But I think they should happen.

They'll probably do something SUPER dumb, like have Earth 90 Barry be the one to sacrifice himself in place of our Barry, and have Superman sacrifice himself instead of Kara.

But to me, those two moves are entirely too predictable. It's like their bringing back these 2 characters, just to serve as a plot device and spare the 2 "destined to die" characters. And by doing this, they completely neglect the event's impact. The tagline is "The Universe will never be the same". But by introducing secondary characters just to die in place of your longstanding characters, nothing really changes at all, and the "Crisis" loses it's impact.

It's all speculation, at this point. But as I said, I'm hoping we get the death scenes for Barry and Kara, and then they are revived in the reboot...perhaps at someone else's expense.
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Part of the reason Crisis on Infinite Earths carries so much weight is BECAUSE of the deaths of both Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El. For this reason...I feel those events need to happen. There are certain story beats that NEED to take place. And seeing those deaths will carry an incredible emotional impact.

I think the writers laid their cards on the table to a degree. It was written in the Book of Destiny that Barry and Kara would have to die. But Oliver objected to that. The Monitor asked what he thought should be done instead. Earlier, Superman had said rewriting destiny comes with a price. I think they might be telegraphing a different resolution.
Exactly, since when has this TV universe always stuck to the comics. I think Oliver traded his life for Kara and Barry’s. The scene with Oliver and Barry in the bar makes me think Oliver knows he doesn’t have long to live. Real life stuff now, Arrow is in its seventh season and Stephen has made noises about wanting to spend more time with his family. Leads contracts are for seven years right, Stephen may have agreed to stick around so Oliver can go out with a bang. The network has to make space for the presumed Batwoman show.
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Regardless of the comic mythology, the producers will not mess with their strongest shows, Supergirl and Flash. I do not pretend to know how they will deal with it. But, I hope they bring in a whole new crew of talented writers to Supergirl. The current ones, including the Show Runners, lack vision and quality. Change is needed.

Argo
A journey of 1,000 KM, begins with one step.
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Part of the reason Crisis on Infinite Earths carries so much weight is BECAUSE of the deaths of both Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El. For this reason...I feel those events need to happen. There are certain story beats that NEED to take place. And seeing those deaths will carry an incredible emotional impact.

I think the writers laid their cards on the table to a degree. It was written in the Book of Destiny that Barry and Kara would have to die. But Oliver objected to that. The Monitor asked what he thought should be done instead. Earlier, Superman had said rewriting destiny comes with a price. I think they might be telegraphing a different resolution.
Exactly, since when has this TV universe always stuck to the comics. I think Oliver traded his life for Kara and Barry’s. The scene with Oliver and Barry in the bar makes me think Oliver knows he doesn’t have long to live. Real life stuff now, Arrow is in its seventh season and Stephen has made noises about wanting to spend more time with his family. Leads contracts are for seven years right, Stephen may have agreed to stick around so Oliver can go out with a bang. The network has to make space for the presumed Batwoman show.


I made this reply on the episode recap as well. But I see no reason why Barry and Kara can't make their sacrifice but be brought back, particularly by some deal or sacrifice on Oliver's part.

Because you are exactly right. I don't see them cancelling either show (especially Flash). And certainly not mid-season. But Arrow has run it's course.

But please let me be clear. When I say I want to see Barry and Kara's separate sacrifices, it's not because I want either show to end. It's because these are ICONIC and emotionally powerful scenes, that will only ever get one chance to happen in live action. THIS is that chance. BUT, I also want that Deus Ex Machina at the end that revives them, because both shows deserve to go on. And I very well believe some sacrificial move from Ollie could be that Deus Ex Machina.

That's just what I WANT to happen. Because we are never getting this Crisis on the big screen. It's a miracle we're getting it in live action at all. And because we're probably never getting it, again, I want those moments to be there.

As for what they'll ACTUALLY do? I don't know. But when they try to take an iconic story and make it their own, with their own changes, it doesn't always end well. My biggest example is Flashpoint. Saying the tv version was a disappointment doesn't even cover it.

But, again, we don't know what they'll actually do. But I VERY much look forward to theories and debates and desires being discussed on this thread, over the next year!
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I rarely jump in but I have some thoughts actually. We've all hinted that the deal Oliver made now makes him a candidate. Additionally, we know that in the comics, Supergirl and The Flash are also fair game with the iconic image of Superman holding Supergirl after her death.

I think, for those that watch The Flash, that the crisis event in the future newspaper, will have a date change coming soon due to something Barry's daughter will cause. This puts his disappearance front and center for next year. Additionally, Kara sacrificing herself for family is very real, maybe it's actually Alex and her son or daughter not Superman but that was also put into motion at the end of Elseworlds.

Basically, I think the writers will maneuver the three main cast members in a way that makes their deaths all very possible. That said, I think Supergirl should be the one to "die" because as we've seen already, the show has no issues with adapting Superman stories for their own purposes. We could have a second half of Supergirl where we explore the world without Supergirl, Supergirl's doppelgangers, and finally the return of Supergirl, all of which could be done in a few episodes as not to limit Melissa's screen time.

Side note, This has never happened to me before but running both Batwoman and Supergirl.tv these last few days has actually made my hands sore from typing. OUCH
You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.
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I rarely jump in but I have some thoughts actually. We've all hinted that the deal Oliver made now makes him a candidate. Additionally, we know that in the comics, Supergirl and The Flash are also fair game with the iconic image of Superman holding Supergirl after her death.

I think, for those that watch The Flash, that the crisis event in the future newspaper, will have a date change coming soon due to something Barry's daughter will cause. This puts his disappearance front and center for next year. Additionally, Kara sacrificing herself for family is very real, maybe it's actually Alex and her son or daughter not Superman but that was also put into motion at the end of Elseworlds.

Basically, I think the writers will maneuver the three main cast members in a way that makes their deaths all very possible. That said, I think Supergirl should be the one to "die" because as we've seen already, the show has no issues with adapting Superman stories for their own purposes. We could have a second half of Supergirl where we explore the world without Supergirl, Supergirl's doppelgangers, and finally the return of Supergirl, all of which could be done in a few episodes as not to limit Melissa's screen time.

Side note, This has never happened to me before but running both Batwoman and Supergirl.tv these last few days has actually made my hands sore from typing. OUCH


I was gonna keep the theory to myself, but you pretty much expressed what I've been thinking.

I could see Supergirl being the one to die in the crossover (presumably episode 8 or 9). We explore the world without her, for a few episodes. Then, episode 13 (which is also the series' 100th episode), we see her return.
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I have to admit that as a fan of both Supergirl and The Flash, I am actually not a fan of this idea at all. I dont want to sound like a drama queen but we all know what happens in the Crisis... comic book storyline. Tell me why should I watch either one if they are just going to kill off both Supergirl and Barry Allen. I have to admit I am worried. Then I have to ask myself how can there be a Supergirl or Flash series if they kill off the leads, especially if this event happens in the middle of the season as it usually does. Oh I know they can somehow make the Russian Supergirl the new Supergirl after our Supergirl dies and hand the lead to another one of the men who has been known as the Flash. All I have to say is I feel like stopping watching these shows right now just because I don't like knowing they might die as they did in the comic book. Now I would be okay with it if I knew for sure it wouldnt stick. THEY BETTER NOT KILL EITHER OF THESE CHARACTERS FOR KEEPS.
Josh Faris
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I'm not a comic book connoisseur but, even I know of Crisis on Earth and what that means for Supergirl. By no means do I want a permanent death of our girl but, I also don't want to see someone else, like Oliver, step in and be the true hero, sacrificing himself not only for the common good but, for Kara and Barry. A sacrifice like that is the ultimate sacrifice and historically put Kara up there in status, above other superheroes because of it. And I don't want that taken away from her.

I'm not really that concerned about what Kara's "death" would mean for the show because I think they could easily find a fix for it. I wouldn't want half of a season without Kara but, I also don't think they could put a fix in immediately and not have it lose some of its impact. So, what that looks like, I don't know - they have a year to figure it out though. One other thing, if indeed Kara is one of those who dies, it best happen in the Supergirl hour and we better get more than a couple of minutes of the impact on Kara's family, friends and National City.

A possible theory might be that this season ends with Kara converting the Red Daughter Supergirl into a good guy and maybe it is she that sacrifices - which would lose a bit of the impact but, would solve two problems - a second SG and how to sacrifice Kara. Or, maybe our Kara sacrifices and dies temporarily while the Red Daughter takes over for her for a bit until she returns?
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I think the writers laid their cards on the table to a degree. It was written in the Book of Destiny that Barry and Kara would have to die. But Oliver objected to that. The Monitor asked what he thought should be done instead. Earlier, Superman had said rewriting destiny comes with a price. I think they might be telegraphing a different resolution.


Perhaps. But that only spared them from THIS event, because even Oliver knew they were the best bet for surviving the oncoming Crisis.

Like I said, I don't think their deaths will be permanent. But I think they should happen.

In story, you are correct; it saved them from dying in the Elseworlds event. However, on a "meta" level, I think it might be a metaphor--to wit: It is written in the Book of Destiny (i.e., the original Crisis comic book) that Barry and Oliver will die. BUT Oliver cut a deal of some sort, so that need not be the case. There will still be a price--just not necessarily that one.

That is just a thought that sprang to my mind when watching. Not saying it is what will happen. :)

It does seem odd to me, though, to want to see the death of Kara and/or Barry to give Crisis weight, only to have it undone soon afterward. Part of the reason those deaths carried such gravitas was that they "stuck" for around 20 years--an eternity in comic book terms. I might well call foul if they cheapened it in such a way.

As for Flashpoint, I agree it was massive disappointment, but not because they were missing any iconic moments. It was because they did far too little with the premise.

I guess the best way to put it is that I'm leaving room for the writers to come up with their own iconic moments, whatever they turn out to be. Gonna be a looong wait for next fall, though...
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My two cents for whatever it is worth:

1) Supergirl really should not die in CoIE because it has been done in the comics (and it was a result of internal politics at DC in the 1980s - i.e. the flop that the 1984 film was hastened SG's exit from the DC universe at the time - she was brought back in the 1990s) and would be too much of a stab in the back to the fans to see it happen. Ditto for the Flash. The characters are too popular to simply knock off and bring back later. It might have worked in print, but it really would be a horrid thing to do in a live-action setting.

2) As other have pointed out, it is quite possible that Oliver Queen and someone else (they need at least two deaths to even the count out) may take the fall as a substitution for SG and the Flash.

3) The fact that the PTB and the writers are going to attempt to retell CoIE is significant. Since so many characters and so many worlds (Earths) are involved, it will be a monumental feat to see if they can reign it in over 3, 4 or 5 nights and over a variety of shows (since all shows will likely be involved). This involves introducing a lot of new characters in quick succession across all shows in order to make it viable. And, as we all know the old expression: "Too many cooks..."

4) Logistically this could be a huge nightmare to pull of on the small screen. We've seen how mixed and uneven the DC Justice League films have been and the MCU's Avengers series and recent Infinity Wars is a hit-or-miss masterpiece or piece of work, depending on your point of view. CoIE could easily consume an entire season across all affected shows in order for it to be properly told.

5) Doing CoIE opens up a huge can of whoop a## because CoIE was followed by follow-up (post) Crises series in the comic realm. The PTB would be opening up a possible Pandora's Box and may feel compelled to try to tackle the follow-ups as well. Budgets, time constraints, FX and logistics will be monumental in pulling it off.

In truth, I'm hoping that based on the tidbits revealed in the SG Elseworlds portion of the 3-night run, that both Supergirl and the Flash stay alive based on the apparent deal with the devil that Oliver Queen made with the Monitor. Oliver may be the first of the characters to be knocked off but he will not be the only one. (Since the devil doesn't keep his promises)
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Something you said, Sully, got me thinking of another possibility....

Red Daughter came from splitting Kara. Perhaps, killing one unites them--somewhat along the lines of Reign absorbing the other World Killers.

But, whatever happens if she does die, we saw what happens in Justice League.

Should it be Oliver who dies, he'll have to be brought back--even IF it was Arrow's final season--simply because a dead Oliver would leave half a season left of Arrow without its star. That doesn't work, either. So really? I hope it's still Kara who dies a martyr, then be brought back an episode later after they let it all sink in.
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@LibertyPrime

Agreed, gonna be a long year.

Not trying to be contrarian. I just want to explain WHY I want to see these iconic scenes happen, and why they can still be incredibly impactful.

In this medium, those deaths can have a lot of weight, even if temporary. Live action can arguably portray more emotion as to why they are making their sacrifices. Furthermore, one of the things that can make a death so powerful, even when it's temporary, is it's effect on the supporting characters. It's something we don't get much of in the Crisis book, because SO much else is happening, and everyone's memories of Supergirl are gone after the universe is rebooted.

Imagine Kara visualizing Clark with his newborn child, as she flies in to take the blast that was meant for him? Imagine Clark's shock and grief at seeing his cousin perish before him...his little cousin, whom he once dropped off at the Danvers' house to keep safe, giving her life for his. Imagine the guilt he would feel that it was a blast meant for him...Or the concern in Alex's eyes when she sees when Kara doesn't return with the other heroes, only to see Superman walk in, cradling her lifeless form. Imagine getting to see everyone who cares about Kara react to the realization that she's gone. Alex mourning the loss of her sister. J'onn, almost feeling like a father, mourning the loss of yet another child. Somebody, probably James, having to explain to Lena why Kara isn't coming back (if she doesn't already know the secret by then)

Imagine Barry's life flashing before his eyes as he runs faster and faster...faster than he's ever gone, to save the multiverse, and his family. His time with his mother. His youth in the West household. His early adventures with Cisco and Caitlynn. His wedding to Iris. Getting to meet his daughter from the future, but knowing that he's going to miss out on raising her. He races faster and faster, until he fades into nothing, thinking only of his loved ones. And at the same time, you get his family reacting to the sacrifice. Iris losing her husband. Or Joe reacting to the loss of his adoptive son. Cisco and Caitlynn, to whom Barry is closer than family. And Nora, if she's still around, facing literally her worst fear, her father disappearing before her.

These are the scenes I CRAVE, because even if I KNOW the hero is coming back, I well up with emotion. And I LOVE when a TV show can make me feel emotions that intensely.

It's the same reason I still get teary eyed when I watch the end of "Solitude", where Alex comes clean about killing Astra. I've seen it. I KNOW it's going to be okay. But I still tear up because I empathize with what the characters are going through in that moment. Particularly when J'onn goes to leave the room, and Kara grabs his arm. It gets me...every...freaking...time.

And then, because they do have their own shows, we get to see the eventual (and wonderful) return of these characters. Whether it be at the end of the Crisis, or a few episodes down the line...We get the possibility of a whole new set of emotions from their loved ones when they return.

Not gonna lie, I got a little choked up when writing some of those examples. Particularly imagining the possible reactions from Cisco, Joe, and J'onn.


On a different piece of the Crisis topic, it is on INFINITE EARTHS. So we could get the opportunity to see more new (or old) characters from other universes. Who do you guys think will show up? Who do you guys HOPE will show up?

I'm fairly confident we'll see the return of the 90's Flash. I don't know the likelihood, but I'd like to see some Smallville characters, as well. But all things considered, that's a Hail Mary.

It'd be cool to see Earth 90 John Stewart (Diggle) Green Lantern?

I'd like to see more throwbacks to old movies or shows, even if they are just cameos. It can even new actors (or even extras) in old suits. It'd be cool to see the Batgirl suit from Birds of Prey. Maybe someone in one of the Burton Batman suits?

Brandon Routh as an alternate reality Superman? Characters from Titans? (still a Berlanti production, after all).

There are a LOT of possibilities, and I'd like to get your thoughts!
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Not trying to be contrarian. I just want to explain WHY I want to see these iconic scenes happen, and why they can still be incredibly impactful.

Never thought you were being contrarian, just passionate. Totally cool. :)
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Something you said, Sully, got me thinking of another possibility....

Red Daughter came from splitting Kara. Perhaps, killing one unites them--somewhat along the lines of Reign absorbing the other World Killers.

But, whatever happens if she does die, we saw what happens in Justice League.

Should it be Oliver who dies, he'll have to be brought back--even IF it was Arrow's final season--simply because a dead Oliver would leave half a season left of Arrow without its star. That doesn't work, either. So really? I hope it's still Kara who dies a martyr, then be brought back an episode later after they let it all sink in.
True, it's entirely possible for Kara to die and come back. I'm not a person who thinks the shows need to mirror the comics so I'm ok with that or her not dying. I do think it's important to see her, as she did last night, go on what she thinks is a suicide mission to save the world. I have a solution to the Oliver dies and Arrow is left with half season issue. What if Arrow as a show ends in spring 2019 but Stephen and other actors from the show still appear in CoIE in fall 2019. CoIE would actually take place on the shows that would continue Supergirl, Flash, LoT, and the presumed Batwoman show but Oliver and company will have parts.
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Another possibility is that the CoIE storyline will take up all shows next year starting in Autumn 2019 and, although each series will be filmed separately as stand-alone shows, they will all have threads that tie each into one-another in order to eventually merge all of the currently existing universes/timelines.

The idea that they will merge SG's Earth-38 and Earth-1 is fairly plausible given that 75% of the shows (Arrow, Flash, LoT, Black Lightning, Batwoman) operate in that reality. Although I personally prefer each show to be separate realities, the PTB and by extension, the writers, seem to have their minds set on lumping everything into one big pot. In my view, this would be a enormous gamble and may help or hinder each show.

Nonetheless, this is all speculation until the upfronts and show renewals and next autumn.
"Liberation" and "Arm In Arm" - Arkells, from the CD/LP/Download Blink Once. (2021)

"Bitter Taste" - Billy Idol, from the CD/LP/Download The Roadside EP. (2021)

"Run" - OneRepublic, from the CD/LP/Download Human. (2021)
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Kiwi, I love your idea of the Crossover actually STARTING the season for the Arrowverse, and your reasoning for so doing.
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The Supergirl who dies might be Red Daughter.

The other solution to Red Daughter is to use one of Superman's less commonly used powers, the ability to split himself into two people, each with rather less power than the original. Folks on this list who did not watch the Superman TV show when it first came out in living black and white may not remember this power, which corresponds to his ability to dematerialize and walk ghostlike through indestructible solid walls. In any event, through force of will the two Supermen were able to reunite into one person. Supergirl could do the same.
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