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  4. Tuesday, 11 December 2018
Crisis on Infinite Earths

Elseworlds part 3 has not aired at my timezone just yet, but CW Crisis on Infinite Earths is reportedly confirmed (I have yet to see that).

The good news is that this means Supergirl will very likely have a Season 5.

However I hope they don't kill her off just like in the comics. The crossover will likely fall on the 96th or 97th Season 5 episode of Supergirl. If they're trying to set a 100th episode milestone for Supergirl, then she can't be killed off (I think).

Thoughts?

:)
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As far as what I want in the crossover? I want Kara/Supergirl to have as much of a presence in it as Barry and Oliver. That's pretty simple I think. I want Supergirl to be shown as the most powerful....why? because she is and should be written that way. If they are worried about her defeating the villain to easily, then write a better villain.

As for me and my excitement for the story? I'm very excited, however I am also very cautious, if not skeptical that they can write as interesting of a story as the comics. So, I would much rather go into the crossover with expectations low, rather than go in hyped and that being drenched with the cold water of CW writing.
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Emily is doing a Broadway play right now, so maybe that was it?

I really thought that was weird as well. If it was $$$ I highly doubt she is making in the play what she was making per episode. But, I really have no clue on those things, just don't see that happening. So her wanting more $$$ possibly for the final 10 eps and them not agreeing probably isn't a reason. Maybe the play is going longer than the 10 episodes? but even then, Plays in New York are an iffy business at best as far as longevity.

Just really, really weird on her part.
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I don't want Supergirl's 100th episode anywhere, in anyway near the crossover. Already far too many characters in the crossover. I want her 100th all Supergirl.


Amen, sista!!

I'm not really looking forward to the100th episode. The milestone is impressive, but the previous shows'attempts to celebrate it were of decidedly mixed quality. I would be happy if they treat it mostly as a normal episode.
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I don't want Supergirl's 100th episode anywhere, in anyway near the crossover. Already far too many characters in the crossover. I want her 100th all Supergirl.


Amen, sista!!
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Hmmm... Just finished rewatching Elseworlds. And now, I'm not really convinced Oliver is going to die, nor am I really convinced he actually traded his life for Kara and Barry's.

Right after the scene with the Monitor asking Oliver what did Oliver propose as a trade to keep the balance, immediately we are transported to the scene of Degal (spelling??) with the book re-rewriting everything, fighting off our super crew, eventually with Oliver arriving back on the scene. He pulls an arrow out. Note the tip--it's shimmering with a blue light. And, when said arrow strikes the book and it drops to the ground, not only does light stop coming from the pages, the pages actually appear to die and decay--becoming brown and brittle looking. Seems to me, Oliver asking to destroy (take the life from) the book, rather than asking the Monitor to give the book to him, is a fair trade, a great "balance" to offset changing Kara and Barry's destiny. In fact, by destroying the book, everything on Earth 1 returns back to normal--balance restored.

Also... just thought of this...trading his ONE life doesn't offset saving Kara AND Barry's TWO lives. The death of such a powerful book seems more like it.

And finally, one of the last things we see is Barry and Oliver at the bar. Barry tries to tell Oliver that Oliver's a good man, to which Barry replies, "I'm not as good as you think I am, but because of you, I think I'll get there someday." Doesn't sound like a man who thinks he's going to die anytime soon. I know he later proposes a toast that they appreciate what they have *pause* "however long you may have it"....but I can't help but feel perhaps the writers threw that in there as a red herring. lol

Hmmmmm. Can't wait for season 5 and the crossover.
Really looking forward to season five, still not excited for the crossover. They seem to be throwing everyone and the kitchen sink into an already full cast. Most importantly I don't want my shows blown up for the sake of Arrow's sendoff. As to weather Oliver will die, your post reminded me of something I read when I did some surface level reading on CoIE. I remembered reading about characters that survived but didn't remain on Earth and after some searching was able to find it. In the comics Superboy-Prime joins Alexander Luthor, Jr., Kal-L, and his wife Lois Lane in a "paradise dimension". Maybe in this version that's where Oliver goes. Oliver wanted to change Kara and Barry's destinies as written in that book so he asked for a way to destroy the book. The Monitor could've been intrigued/impressed that Oliver didn't want the book's powers for himself. The Monitor gave Oliver a chance to change his friends destinies but at the expense of his own. The deal was in exchange for the arrow that could destroy the book the Monitor said if Oliver survives the coming Crisis he can't stay on Earth. Oliver agreed to that but added that Felicity would be given a choice to join him in the "paradise dimension". That would explain the scene we saw with Felicity and the Monitor, she stayed on Earth for her daughter but once Mia was grown she went to join Oliver. Side note I still don't get why Emily Bett Rickards decided to leave with 10 episodes left.

I don't want Supergirl's 100th episode anywhere, in anyway near the crossover. Already far too many characters in the crossover. I want her 100th all Supergirl
Could not agree more!! With the 100th being episode 13 and the crossover likely episode 9 it should be far enough away. I'm thinking episode 13 will air 3/1/2020.
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I don't want Supergirl's 100th episode anywhere, in anyway near the crossover. Already far too many characters in the crossover. I want her 100th all Supergirl.
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Amell has said he may not die in Crisis....so who knows.

Maybe he traded his future, not his life
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Hmmm... Just finished rewatching Elseworlds. And now, I'm not really convinced Oliver is going to die, nor am I really convinced he actually traded his life for Kara and Barry's.

Right after the scene with the Monitor asking Oliver what did Oliver propose as a trade to keep the balance, immediately we are transported to the scene of Degal (spelling??) with the book re-rewriting everything, fighting off our super crew, eventually with Oliver arriving back on the scene. He pulls an arrow out. Note the tip--it's shimmering with a blue light. And, when said arrow strikes the book and it drops to the ground, not only does light stop coming from the pages, the pages actually appear to die and decay--becoming brown and brittle looking. Seems to me, Oliver asking to destroy (take the life from) the book, rather than asking the Monitor to give the book to him, is a fair trade, a great "balance" to offset changing Kara and Barry's destiny. In fact, by destroying the book, everything on Earth 1 returns back to normal--balance restored.

Also... just thought of this...trading his ONE life doesn't offset saving Kara AND Barry's TWO lives. The death of such a powerful book seems more like it.

And finally, one of the last things we see is Barry and Oliver at the bar. Barry tries to tell Oliver that Oliver's a good man, to which Barry replies, "I'm not as good as you think I am, but because of you, I think I'll get there someday." Doesn't sound like a man who thinks he's going to die anytime soon. I know he later proposes a toast that they appreciate what they have *pause* "however long you may have it"....but I can't help but feel perhaps the writers threw that in there as a red herring. lol

Hmmmmm. Can't wait for season 5 and the crossover.

Yes, the possibility of the audience going for the obvious interpretation and the writers serving up something else entirely is a distinct possibility.

The 2040 timeline as presented last season in Arrow indicates that the world thinks Oliver is dead, but they played it pretty cagily. Rather annoyingly so.
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Hmmm... Just finished rewatching Elseworlds. And now, I'm not really convinced Oliver is going to die, nor am I really convinced he actually traded his life for Kara and Barry's.

Right after the scene with the Monitor asking Oliver what did Oliver propose as a trade to keep the balance, immediately we are transported to the scene of Degal (spelling??) with the book re-rewriting everything, fighting off our super crew, eventually with Oliver arriving back on the scene. He pulls an arrow out. Note the tip--it's shimmering with a blue light. And, when said arrow strikes the book and it drops to the ground, not only does light stop coming from the pages, the pages actually appear to die and decay--becoming brown and brittle looking. Seems to me, Oliver asking to destroy (take the life from) the book, rather than asking the Monitor to give the book to him, is a fair trade, a great "balance" to offset changing Kara and Barry's destiny. In fact, by destroying the book, everything on Earth 1 returns back to normal--balance restored.

Also... just thought of this...trading his ONE life doesn't offset saving Kara AND Barry's TWO lives. The death of such a powerful book seems more like it.

And finally, one of the last things we see is Barry and Oliver at the bar. Barry tries to tell Oliver that Oliver's a good man, to which Barry replies, "I'm not as good as you think I am, but because of you, I think I'll get there someday." Doesn't sound like a man who thinks he's going to die anytime soon. I know he later proposes a toast that they appreciate what they have *pause* "however long you may have it"....but I can't help but feel perhaps the writers threw that in there as a red herring. lol

Hmmmmm. Can't wait for season 5 and the crossover.
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My concern with the Crisis on Infinite Earths is that I almost think they (being the producers) have put themselves into a predictable outcome. Either one of the following will most likely occur:

A). Kara and Barry will die as they did in the Comic version. But, because both are the stars of shows that are ongoing, they both will have to somehow be revived rather quickly. Which, if not done very well, will invalidate anything they did in the Crisis and will leave fans disappointed.

B). Oliver Queen will take their place and die because that show is ending and his death could be considered final. In this scenario, it will seem almost like a cop-out that Kara and Barry weren't sacrificed.

Either of these two scenarios is predictable and so, I'm not sure how they will be able to spin this to create much apprehension. Maybe it's just me (which is very possible), but I am always more interested in seeing something new, something created out of the writers imagination that will leave me on the edge of my seat, not knowing what will happen and how it will end than to see an established story that has a predictable ending.

C. Of course, none could die and in a way, that would be a complete let-down. I know, I'm hard to please. :)

One thing that I don't want to see happen is a merging of the universes. I like Supergirl in her own world. I haven't seen a cross-over yet that has utilized her the way she should be - she always has to be nerfed big-time and having her in the same universe with so many other superheroes will just compound that problem. Plus, it brings in the complaints of - well, why doesn't Barry come and help? or so and so?


*****

Like you, I have serious reservations about how they will handle CoIE and what it will mean once it has concluded (i.e. who lives and who dies, etc.) And, like you, I' prefer that they kept the universes separate, but since the PTB are all gung-ho for it, I'm sure it will be either a half-baked cake or a success. The proof will be when all is said and done.

We can all only watch and wait.
"Life Goes On" - The Kinks, from the CD/LP/Download Sleepwalker. (1977)
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My concern with the Crisis on Infinite Earths is that I almost think they (being the producers) have put themselves into a predictable outcome. Either one of the following will most likely occur:

A). Kara and Barry will die as they did in the Comic version. But, because both are the stars of shows that are ongoing, they both will have to somehow be revived rather quickly. Which, if not done very well, will invalidate anything they did in the Crisis and will leave fans disappointed.

B). Oliver Queen will take their place and die because that show is ending and his death could be considered final. In this scenario, it will seem almost like a cop-out that Kara and Barry weren't sacrificed.

Either of these two scenarios is predictable and so, I'm not sure how they will be able to spin this to create much apprehension. Maybe it's just me (which is very possible), but I am always more interested in seeing something new, something created out of the writers imagination that will leave me on the edge of my seat, not knowing what will happen and how it will end than to see an established story that has a predictable ending.

C. Of course, none could die and in a way, that would be a complete let-down. I know, I'm hard to please. :)

One thing that I don't want to see happen is a merging of the universes. I like Supergirl in her own world. I haven't seen a cross-over yet that has utilized her the way she should be - she always has to be nerfed big-time and having her in the same universe with so many other superheroes will just compound that problem. Plus, it brings in the complaints of - well, why doesn't Barry come and help? or so and so?
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Although it could be interesting I don’t see anything even speculation that Black Lightening will be part of CoIE. CoIE is being billed as a five show crossover with Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, LoT and Batwoman. Black Lightning is a good show but IMO the vibe of it just wouldn’t work with the others. There’s also a 3000 mile logistical issue, Black Lightning films in Atlanta, Georgia and all the other shows film in Vancouver, Canada. Making these crossovers is already a logistical nightmare with everyone in the same city let’s not add in international travel.


It'd be fun to see it as a cameo. Like a montage of several worlds fighting off the Anti-Monitor's forces, like in the comics. You could easily flash to Freeland, blanketed by red skies, as Black Lightning, Thunder, and Lightning fight off the Anti-Monitor's forces. No reason something like that couldn't happen in Georgia.
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Although it could be interesting I don’t see anything even speculation that Black Lightening will be part of CoIE. CoIE is being billed as a five show crossover with Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, LoT and Batwoman. Black Lightning is a good show but IMO the vibe of it just wouldn’t work with the others. There’s also a 3000 mile logistical issue, Black Lightning films in Atlanta, Georgia and all the other shows film in Vancouver, Canada. Making these crossovers is already a logistical nightmare with everyone in the same city let’s not add in international travel.
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My thoughts:

  • I don't believe either Barry or Kara will die; their shows are too popular.
  • I do believe Ollie will die, and that he will be the one to strike the final blow against the Anti-Monitor (the "I HAVE HAD ENOUGH!" punch that was given by the Earth-2 Superman in the original Crisis)
  • I would like the Pierce family from Black Lightning to appear in the crossover. I don't want to mess up what BL has going on, but I want them to get to play with the others. If the Monitor springs Tobias to bring him in as well, so be it.
  • I want the main outcome to be that Earth-1, Earth-38, and Earth-BL are merged (maybe Earth-3 as well, since it's kind of the Earth-2 of the Arrowverse). As I said, i don't want to mess with BL, but to me that can be solved with a simple "Freeland's problems can't be solved by outsiders... we need to take care of our own" type of conversation.
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Hmmm....perhaps Oliver isn't going to die after all?

https://www.tvguide.com/news/stephen-amell-not-done-with-oliver-queen-arrowverse/
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Ok Kdogg now that you’ve clarified your question it helped me solidify my own position, thanks for that. My short answer is none of the above. I don’t have alternatives to Kara and Barry’s arcs from CoIE because I don’t feel the need to see the comic versions brought life with the TV characters in the first place. I might feel different with a movie but I don’t think CoIE, especially a comic accurate one, is an appropriate story to do with TV shows that are continuing.

I didn’t grow up as a “comic book person” and what I know about CoIE is it rebooted the DC universe to fix decades of continuity errors and killed a lot of characters including Kara and Barry in the process. I understand that it’s considered a pivotal moment, so totally get the iconic status for some. I want the foundation of the Supergirl and Flash shows that we have to be perfected not blown up. If they can do as LibertyPrime says use the spirit of the story to create some emotional stakes and consequences (which we already have with one show ending) then cool. I’m worried that Supergirl and Flash will be fundamentally changed for the sake upping the scale of the yearly mega crossover and to me that’s not a good reason.

I’m going to back away from this thread because it’s not meant for me but for those who are fans of the comic version of CoIE and desire some version of it on the small screen.

As I see it, Brierrose, the thread is for anyone with an interest in the crossover, comic book fan or not. :)

Your understanding of the original COIE is spot on, and it is something I neglected to mention, despite it informing my opinion of the upcoming adaptation.

Crisis did not happen in a vacuum. Marv Wolfman came up with the idea to simplify the multiverse and give a fresh start to the characters.

Some characters were killed off because of corporate whim, like Barry Allen. "I didn't think it was a good idea to kill The Flash but those were my marching orders, so I did the best I could to make his death as moving as I could. ... Much of the reason the people in charge didn't care for Barry Allen was that he was considered dull." (From this Wolfman interview: http://www.wtv-zone.com/silverager/interviews/wolfman.shtml)

Supergirl's death and exit from continuity happened so that Superman could be re-established as the last survivor of Krypton going forward--at least at first.

In short, the original Crisis set out to do specific things. The circumstances and problems of 1985 DC Comics are different from those of 2019 Arroweverse. Stephen Amell's pending exit is a big deal that needs to be addressed. I don't think the powers that be consider Barry "dull," when the Flash is currently sitting at the top of the CW heap.

So it only seems logical to me that the writers may have some different things in mind for the event.
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It is pretty obvious that it is going to be Oliver.

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Ok Kdogg now that you’ve clarified your question it helped me solidify my own position, thanks for that. My short answer is none of the above. I don’t have alternatives to Kara and Barry’s arcs from CoIE because I don’t feel the need to see the comic versions brought life with the TV characters in the first place. I might feel different with a movie but I don’t think CoIE, especially a comic accurate one, is an appropriate story to do with TV shows that are continuing.

I didn’t grow up as a “comic book person” and what I know about CoIE is it rebooted the DC universe to fix decades of continuity errors and killed a lot of characters including Kara and Barry in the process. I understand that it’s considered a pivotal moment, so totally get the iconic status for some. I want the foundation of the Supergirl and Flash shows that we have to be perfected not blown up. If they can do as LibertyPrime says use the spirit of the story to create some emotional stakes and consequences (which we already have with one show ending) then cool. I’m worried that Supergirl and Flash will be fundamentally changed for the sake upping the scale of the yearly mega crossover and to me that’s not a good reason.

I’m going to back away from this thread because it’s not meant for me but for those who are fans of the comic version of CoIE and desire some version of it on the small screen.
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kdogg87, first off, I understand that you want to see as faithful an adaptation of COIE as possible, and it's easy to see why! It is THE crossover--the gold standard. I also get why you would want to see the adaptation honor the sacrifices the characters made in the original.

My own thinking, though, is that the Arrowverse takes elements from the comics and runs them through the CWDC filter to suit its needs. COIE will be no exception. The prominent "trinity" of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman is recreated in Green Arrow, Flash, and Supergirl, so I see their respective roles must be somewhat different in the Arrowverse version, where they feature more prominently.

As for what I want to see from this new version, I don't have specific plot threads or outcomes in mind. I believe that the stakes and consequences should be real. I would point to Crisis of Earth X as an example that worked because the threat to the characters was large enough in scale--and personal for many characters. Losing Martin Stein gave the victory a tangible cost. And it did that because the loss was final.

So going in, I'm not saying so-and-so must die, or someone else must live. (Although there is some pretty heavy foreshadowing going on with regard to one character.) Rather, I'm simply saying the writers should honor the original by finding the story that works for these versions of the characters. I am not sure what that looks like, but I trust I will know it when I see it.

At their best, these shows recreate the fun and emotions I had in reading the latest issue of a comic book. For COIE, I expect much the same--something thrilling in the spirit and shape of the original comics, with enough differences to surprise me a bit as well. If they pull that off, I will be beyond ecstatic.
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Apologies about the excessive posts. I'm obviously really passionate about this story, and am over-the-moon that it's actually being produced.
I'm not sure I understand what u are asking....what should they do without Supergirl in the crossover, what should they do with Supergirl in the crossover????

Sorry, I'll try to clarify.

This story is famous for killing many high profile characters. Perhaps most notably are Supergirl and The Flash, in two character defining scenes where they each respectively sacrifice themselves for the greater good. These scenes are not only iconic to these 2 characters, but are also synonymous with CoIE.

I personally think these sacrifices should happen, in the crossover, because of their iconic status, even if the deaths are undone by the end of the crossover (or a few episodes later). However, many people here don't want those scenes to take place (understandably so).

So, what I'm asking of those people, is what they would do for alternative story arcs, for these 2 two characters, should those death scenes be cut. What type of alternate arc would they give Supergirl and/or Flash that cut those scenes, but still carried heavy emotional weight and impact for both characters.
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