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  4. Tuesday, 11 December 2018
Crisis on Infinite Earths

Elseworlds part 3 has not aired at my timezone just yet, but CW Crisis on Infinite Earths is reportedly confirmed (I have yet to see that).

The good news is that this means Supergirl will very likely have a Season 5.

However I hope they don't kill her off just like in the comics. The crossover will likely fall on the 96th or 97th Season 5 episode of Supergirl. If they're trying to set a 100th episode milestone for Supergirl, then she can't be killed off (I think).

Thoughts?

:)
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Ok Kdogg now that you’ve clarified your question it helped me solidify my own position, thanks for that. My short answer is none of the above. I don’t have alternatives to Kara and Barry’s arcs from CoIE because I don’t feel the need to see the comic versions brought life with the TV characters in the first place. I might feel different with a movie but I don’t think CoIE, especially a comic accurate one, is an appropriate story to do with TV shows that are continuing.

I didn’t grow up as a “comic book person” and what I know about CoIE is it rebooted the DC universe to fix decades of continuity errors and killed a lot of characters including Kara and Barry in the process. I understand that it’s considered a pivotal moment, so totally get the iconic status for some. I want the foundation of the Supergirl and Flash shows that we have to be perfected not blown up. If they can do as LibertyPrime says use the spirit of the story to create some emotional stakes and consequences (which we already have with one show ending) then cool. I’m worried that Supergirl and Flash will be fundamentally changed for the sake upping the scale of the yearly mega crossover and to me that’s not a good reason.

I’m going to back away from this thread because it’s not meant for me but for those who are fans of the comic version of CoIE and desire some version of it on the small screen.

As I see it, Brierrose, the thread is for anyone with an interest in the crossover, comic book fan or not. :)

Your understanding of the original COIE is spot on, and it is something I neglected to mention, despite it informing my opinion of the upcoming adaptation.

Crisis did not happen in a vacuum. Marv Wolfman came up with the idea to simplify the multiverse and give a fresh start to the characters.

Some characters were killed off because of corporate whim, like Barry Allen. "I didn't think it was a good idea to kill The Flash but those were my marching orders, so I did the best I could to make his death as moving as I could. ... Much of the reason the people in charge didn't care for Barry Allen was that he was considered dull." (From this Wolfman interview: http://www.wtv-zone.com/silverager/interviews/wolfman.shtml)

Supergirl's death and exit from continuity happened so that Superman could be re-established as the last survivor of Krypton going forward--at least at first.

In short, the original Crisis set out to do specific things. The circumstances and problems of 1985 DC Comics are different from those of 2019 Arroweverse. Stephen Amell's pending exit is a big deal that needs to be addressed. I don't think the powers that be consider Barry "dull," when the Flash is currently sitting at the top of the CW heap.

So it only seems logical to me that the writers may have some different things in mind for the event.
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It is pretty obvious that it is going to be Oliver.

.
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Ok Kdogg now that you’ve clarified your question it helped me solidify my own position, thanks for that. My short answer is none of the above. I don’t have alternatives to Kara and Barry’s arcs from CoIE because I don’t feel the need to see the comic versions brought life with the TV characters in the first place. I might feel different with a movie but I don’t think CoIE, especially a comic accurate one, is an appropriate story to do with TV shows that are continuing.

I didn’t grow up as a “comic book person” and what I know about CoIE is it rebooted the DC universe to fix decades of continuity errors and killed a lot of characters including Kara and Barry in the process. I understand that it’s considered a pivotal moment, so totally get the iconic status for some. I want the foundation of the Supergirl and Flash shows that we have to be perfected not blown up. If they can do as LibertyPrime says use the spirit of the story to create some emotional stakes and consequences (which we already have with one show ending) then cool. I’m worried that Supergirl and Flash will be fundamentally changed for the sake upping the scale of the yearly mega crossover and to me that’s not a good reason.

I’m going to back away from this thread because it’s not meant for me but for those who are fans of the comic version of CoIE and desire some version of it on the small screen.
Hope, Help and Compassion for all
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kdogg87, first off, I understand that you want to see as faithful an adaptation of COIE as possible, and it's easy to see why! It is THE crossover--the gold standard. I also get why you would want to see the adaptation honor the sacrifices the characters made in the original.

My own thinking, though, is that the Arrowverse takes elements from the comics and runs them through the CWDC filter to suit its needs. COIE will be no exception. The prominent "trinity" of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman is recreated in Green Arrow, Flash, and Supergirl, so I see their respective roles must be somewhat different in the Arrowverse version, where they feature more prominently.

As for what I want to see from this new version, I don't have specific plot threads or outcomes in mind. I believe that the stakes and consequences should be real. I would point to Crisis of Earth X as an example that worked because the threat to the characters was large enough in scale--and personal for many characters. Losing Martin Stein gave the victory a tangible cost. And it did that because the loss was final.

So going in, I'm not saying so-and-so must die, or someone else must live. (Although there is some pretty heavy foreshadowing going on with regard to one character.) Rather, I'm simply saying the writers should honor the original by finding the story that works for these versions of the characters. I am not sure what that looks like, but I trust I will know it when I see it.

At their best, these shows recreate the fun and emotions I had in reading the latest issue of a comic book. For COIE, I expect much the same--something thrilling in the spirit and shape of the original comics, with enough differences to surprise me a bit as well. If they pull that off, I will be beyond ecstatic.
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Apologies about the excessive posts. I'm obviously really passionate about this story, and am over-the-moon that it's actually being produced.
I'm not sure I understand what u are asking....what should they do without Supergirl in the crossover, what should they do with Supergirl in the crossover????

Sorry, I'll try to clarify.

This story is famous for killing many high profile characters. Perhaps most notably are Supergirl and The Flash, in two character defining scenes where they each respectively sacrifice themselves for the greater good. These scenes are not only iconic to these 2 characters, but are also synonymous with CoIE.

I personally think these sacrifices should happen, in the crossover, because of their iconic status, even if the deaths are undone by the end of the crossover (or a few episodes later). However, many people here don't want those scenes to take place (understandably so).

So, what I'm asking of those people, is what they would do for alternative story arcs, for these 2 two characters, should those death scenes be cut. What type of alternate arc would they give Supergirl and/or Flash that cut those scenes, but still carried heavy emotional weight and impact for both characters.
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@Brierrose, LibertyPrime, and others.

You're making it very clear what you DON'T want in CoIE. So I suppose my next question would be what do you want to see, instead? What would you do with Supergirl and other characters, so that this event still holds the impact it needs to, without those iconic scenes? I mean, it's very clear at this point that we're not going to agree about what we want from this event, and that's totally okay. Differing opinions and ideas, presented in respectful fashion, is why I love this forum. But I'm very interested in hearing what you would do instead, beyond the blankest statement of "We want more Supergirl" (which I also want). What would you do to cut those scenes and moments, but still ensure that this event carries the weight and impact that it's very name carries with it?

Also of note, I get that they used the "pose" for about 3 seconds back in season two. But to me, this event isn't about the pose from the comic cover. It's about the huge events, impacts, and character moments that lead to those iconic images.

Apologies about the excessive posts. I'm obviously really passionate about this story, and am over-the-moon that it's actually being produced.
I'm not sure I understand what u are asking....what should they do without Supergirl in the crossover, what should they do with Supergirl in the crossover????
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@Brierrose, LibertyPrime, and others.

You're making it very clear what you DON'T want in CoIE. So I suppose my next question would be what do you want to see, instead? What would you do with Supergirl and other characters, so that this event still holds the impact it needs to, without those iconic scenes? I mean, it's very clear at this point that we're not going to agree about what we want from this event, and that's totally okay. Differing opinions and ideas, presented in respectful fashion, is why I love this forum. But I'm very interested in hearing what you would do instead, beyond the blankest statement of "We want more Supergirl" (which I also want). What would you do to cut those scenes and moments, but still ensure that this event carries the weight and impact that it's very name carries with it?

Also of note, I get that they used the "pose" for about 3 seconds back in season two. But to me, this event isn't about the pose from the comic cover. It's about the huge events, impacts, and character moments that lead to those iconic images.

Apologies about the excessive posts. I'm obviously really passionate about this story, and am over-the-moon that it's actually being produced.
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I'm torn on whether there should be a "death of Supergirl" arc or not. As I have said before I do not have the extensive knowledge of comic canon and history as many of you, and crossovers in general are not my favorite thing. Outside of what I have learned from reading posts on this site, I have almost no knowledge of the history of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Nevertheless I respect the arguments made by kdogg and others, and their points are well taken. But on the other hand the reason I watch is because of Melissa and her interpretation of this character. Supergirl being sidelined in favor of other characters has been and remains a problem for me. I'd watch, but I really don't see myself having the same level of interest in a series of episodes without her, no matter how few or how compelling the story arc might be. Melissa and Supergirl are what make the show for me. So I am about 60:40 in favor of no Supergirl death arc.
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Personally, Supergirl dying/almost dying has lost most if not all of its impact through repetition. ("Oh, this is where she gets beaten to death--again...";)

I would be against an extended absence for the character, as we hardly got enough of her in this season! ;)
Yes, to this. Kara’s already willingly risked her life on kamikaze missions at least twice and almost died a couple more times. IMO she’s already proven that she has the heart and mind of a true hero. Melissa and Tyler already did the Superman holding Supergirl pose from the CoIE comic so personality I don’t need to see it again.
Hope, Help and Compassion for all
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Personally, Supergirl dying/almost dying has lost most if not all of its impact through repetition. ("Oh, this is where she gets beaten to death--again...";)

I would be against an extended absence for the character, as we hardly got enough of her in this season! ;)


I suppose one of the reasons I'm okay with a temporary death is because the "near death" has only happened twice, and was never done particularly well. We had the potential for it, with Reign. But the follow up episode, which should have been about everyone's emotional reaction to Supergirl's defeat, was completely botched.

And as great as "Red Dawn" was, the intensity of that fight did not seem to warrant the "near death" that resulted from it.

As for an extended absence for Melissa, there are SO many ways to explore that time. As I said, you could have one "anthology" style episode, where citizens of the city are remembering different times when Supergirl saved them. So Melissa could be there for that.

You could also have another "Midvale" flashback episode, as Alex and Eliza remember Kara.

Then you have an episode about crime ticking up, as people try to take advantage of Supergirl's absence.

I suppose the main reason I want the "death" isn't just to see Supergirl die, or anything like that. I want the EMOTIONAL impact from the rest of the characters, and the world at large, as they think their hero has fallen. Not just Alex, but Lena, James, Brainy, Nia, Eliza...people she's saved in the past, like that girl who was part of the Cult of Rao. It explores the impact Supergirl has had on both her loved ones, and the world. Not to mention the immediate reactions from the other heroes involved in the "Crisis". In the comic series, Supergirl was the first major casualty. And seeing the type of impact that has on Oliver, Barry, and even Clark, could provide some really wonderful dramatic scenes.

This type of emotional fallout is something we haven't gotten with either of Supergirl's previous two near-death experiences.
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Personally, Supergirl dying/almost dying has lost most if not all of its impact through repetition. ("Oh, this is where she gets beaten to death--again...";)

I would be against an extended absence for the character, as we hardly got enough of her in this season! ;)
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Yes, the fear isn't that Kara wouldn't have any physical fight in crisis. My fear is that her role would be devalued to prop up Arrow.

To take away her sacrifice and give it away to Oliver, would be wrong.

I hope it'd be as Kdogg says and we would get Kara back in a reboot with one earth, but they would still get the respect they deserve. I'd also not mind if we spend a couple of episodes trying to bring back Kara and then have Kara deal with the repercussions of being brought back to life.

Or, us having some change of character etc. so that Kara (and Melissa) has to manage that dynamic.

But, if it is something that has no impact on Supergirl and wouldn't even respect her, I'd rather she keep away.


My other "theory" (more of a wish, really) is that they could do this. Keep Supergirl dead for a bit, then bring her back in epic fashion for episode 100 of her series, which realistically should only be a few episodes after Crisis concludes.

Those episodes in between can still have Melissa featured. Maybe you have one with a "funeral". Maybe you have another where people in the city tell of how Supergirl saved them (told via flashback), and it becomes a Supergirl anthology style episode.

I have my own little theory, using concepts the series, itself, established back in season 1, of how her resurrection could be realistically pulled off.

These are all just theories and wishes. But I do think it would be wise to utilize how close in proximity the CoIE crossover is to Supergirl's 100th episode. They could do a lot with that.
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Yes, the fear isn't that Kara wouldn't have any physical fight in crisis. My fear is that her role would be devalued to prop up Arrow.

To take away her sacrifice and give it away to Oliver, would be wrong.

I hope it'd be as Kdogg says and we would get Kara back in a reboot with one earth, but they would still get the respect they deserve. I'd also not mind if we spend a couple of episodes trying to bring back Kara and then have Kara deal with the repercussions of being brought back to life.

Or, us having some change of character etc. so that Kara (and Melissa) has to manage that dynamic.

But, if it is something that has no impact on Supergirl and wouldn't even respect her, I'd rather she keep away.
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I think the Faustian bargain Oliver made with the Monitor will be the major impact for CoIE. IMHO, despite the comics, it will not be Supergirl and the Flash. Returned from the dead will be complicated in these shows, unless they are different Karas and Barrys. I really believe Oliver’s deal is the key to this crossover.

Argo
Yep.......Arrow is going to out in a blaze of glory.


I have no doubt that Oliver's bargain will impact their fates, overall. However, I still think Supergirl and Flash will "die". I say that because Oliver is simply physically incapable of taking their places and doing what they did when they sacrificed themselves, in the comics. He can't go toe-to-toe with the Anti-Monitor. He can't run fast enough to counter the energy of an anti-matter cannon. He simply cannot do what Barry and Kara can. And even if he could, he can't sacrifice himself twice (once for each of them).

However, CoIE ends in a "reboot" of the universe/multiverse, of sorts. I think that, somehow (perhaps by surviving until the end), Oliver will have a hand in how things are shaped in that reboot, and by sacrificing himself, somehow make sure Barry and Kara are brought back, unlike the rebooted universe from the comics, where Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El stayed dead for decades.

In the comics, Supergirl and Flash have enormous roles in this event. Green Arrow does not. That kinda makes him the "wild card", because we won't know what his real role in the overall event will be (especially with his show ending). However (and I've said this before), NOT including those powerful scenes of Supergirl and Flash's sacrifices not only reduces their role in the event, but is also a disservice to the characters and all that they stand for. Their deaths weren't just quick casualties at the hands of villains. They were decisions that each of them made to sacrifice themselves so others may live. And it's those types of decisions that have defined these two characters. Especially Supergirl, who has been prepared to just give her life away to save the planet on multiple occasions. This is another reason I don't want them to swap Supergirl's death with Superman, instead. Because this kind of sacrifice DEFINES the character of Supergirl, and swapping those fates would be yet another disservice to her character, with the Man of Steel stealing her thunder, once again.

I believe (and hope) that Oliver will bear witness to Kara and Barry's respective sacrifices, and it will eat at him. He sees them as not only friends, but sees himself as a mentor to them, as he has been at the "hero" game longer than them either of them. And as we saw in Elseworlds, he considers them both to be better people than him. He believes them to be genuinely good people. I believe Oliver's sacrifice will not be to prevent their deaths, but rather to reverse them in the "reboot", in the final act of the crossover.
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I agree with Argo about the change in writers, which was why I'm excited they brought in Jay Faerber.

Oliver, Barry, and Kara are the TV trinity and I can see them and Superman taking the leadership role during the Crisis.
I dont see the need for Superman, anymore than I saw the need in the last crossover. You have a Super.....use her this time around.


Normally, I'd agree with you, because I love the emphasis on Supergirl. But Superman and Supergirl are both absolutely crucial to this story, even in the comics. I think Superman needs to be involved. That's not to say they should backburner Supergirl for it. But it's a multiverse ending threat. He needs to be there. As a fan of the source material this story is based on, Superman NEEDS to be there, alongside Supergirl and The Flash.

Crisis on Infinite Earths will only be made into a live action story ONCE. In our lifetime, at least. As such, I want him included because I want it to be as faithful as can be.
If I believed the writers will do a better job of not sidelining SG and using SM instead? I would be all for it....I do not believe that will happen.


In fairness...Supergirl getting sidelined wasn't just a problem in Elseworlds. It was a problem, this season, overall, as we've both discussed, several times, in the main threads regarding this season. But yes. I think they could have easily have had Supergirl fighting Dark Superman. Would have been easier to shoot, as well, as you wouldn't have needed Tyler in the dual role for as much time. Then, they could have had Superman come in at the very end, to help in a reduced role, just as Brainy, J'onn, and Lois did.
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I think the Faustian bargain Oliver made with the Monitor will be the major impact for CoIE. IMHO, despite the comics, it will not be Supergirl and the Flash. Returned from the dead will be complicated in these shows, unless they are different Karas and Barrys. I really believe Oliver’s deal is the key to this crossover.

Argo
Yep.......Arrow is going to out in a blaze of glory.
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I agree with Argo about the change in writers, which was why I'm excited they brought in Jay Faerber.

Oliver, Barry, and Kara are the TV trinity and I can see them and Superman taking the leadership role during the Crisis.
I dont see the need for Superman, anymore than I saw the need in the last crossover. You have a Super.....use her this time around.


Normally, I'd agree with you, because I love the emphasis on Supergirl. But Superman and Supergirl are both absolutely crucial to this story, even in the comics. I think Superman needs to be involved. That's not to say they should backburner Supergirl for it. But it's a multiverse ending threat. He needs to be there. As a fan of the source material this story is based on, Superman NEEDS to be there, alongside Supergirl and The Flash.

Crisis on Infinite Earths will only be made into a live action story ONCE. In our lifetime, at least. As such, I want him included because I want it to be as faithful as can be.
If I believed the writers will do a better job of not sidelining SG and using SM instead? I would be all for it....I do not believe that will happen.
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I agree with Argo about the change in writers, which was why I'm excited they brought in Jay Faerber.

Oliver, Barry, and Kara are the TV trinity and I can see them and Superman taking the leadership role during the Crisis.
I dont see the need for Superman, anymore than I saw the need in the last crossover. You have a Super.....use her this time around.


Normally, I'd agree with you, because I love the emphasis on Supergirl. But Superman and Supergirl are both absolutely crucial to this story, even in the comics. I think Superman needs to be involved. That's not to say they should backburner Supergirl for it. But it's a multiverse ending threat. He needs to be there. As a fan of the source material this story is based on, Superman NEEDS to be there, alongside Supergirl and The Flash.

Crisis on Infinite Earths will only be made into a live action story ONCE. In our lifetime, at least. As such, I want him included because I want it to be as faithful as can be.
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I agree with Argo about the change in writers, which was why I'm excited they brought in Jay Faerber.

Oliver, Barry, and Kara are the TV trinity and I can see them and Superman taking the leadership role during the Crisis.
I dont see the need for Superman, anymore than I saw the need in the last crossover. You have a Super.....use her this time around.
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I agree with Argo about the change in writers, which was why I'm excited they brought in Jay Faerber.

Oliver, Barry, and Kara are the TV trinity and I can see them and Superman taking the leadership role during the Crisis.
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