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  4. Monday, 15 July 2019
Hi,

I found this ew.com article. This is the reason for the suit change for Season 5. In the article, Melissa states that it's more "adult" and allows her to have more range of motion. Maybe yes, maybe no. The final results will be seen on screen.

In my opinion, depending on how the fans react, it might be the last season for the show. In all honesty, at this point, I wouldn't mind it if it was. It's had a good run, pushed boundaries and made its point. In my modest view, too much tinkering eventually leads to a show's collapse. This seems to be the case with this one as well.
References
  1. https://ew.com
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Why shouldn’t Melissa want to look like the adult she is. Why shouldn’t she have more range of motion.
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Great Rao just when I thought this thread was dead.

*cough cough* Broken Record *cough cough*
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Just showed my sister the new promotional shot of Supergirl in the new suit.

Response: Oh wow, that is awesome looking, love it.

Yep, I agree, sis.
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@ Kelly and Brierronse:

@ Brierrose: Not disputing your points. Just saying that too much tinkering will be the show's undoing. That's all! It started with the wonky writing, dodgy science and plausibility issues, character additions and losses (although to be expected), then the suit change. What's next? What more can they snafu?

@ Kelly: Valid points. But, as seen in S4, the suit change works only if it's for a short duration (e.g. one-off super suit, anti-Kryptonite suit, etc.), it does not work well over an entire season.

As for the suit changes on other shows, that's precisely why I don't bother with them. That plus the fact that Arrow and the Flash have been unwatchable story-wise the last two seasons. Horrid writing on both. Arrow should have ended mercifully last year and the Flash, despite still being popular, is running on vapour creatively. Legends of Tomorrow is another kettle of fish I won't bother to get into here.

In all honesty, the show can end anytime the PTB deem it to be expendable - 7-year contracts or not. If it doesn't do well or some unforeseen factors come into play, they will cut their losses and move on. Like pro sports, a contract is only a document with numbers on it and money exchanging hands. Business is business - the spreadsheet and the bottom line are the law.

Although the old suit may have needed freshening up a bit, it should not have been ditched. The new suit does not make Melissa look more adult or more 21st Century - it makes her look completely generic and no different than every other spandex-clad superhero out there today. This is not a good thing. And, no, it has nothing to do with sexism or being stuck in one's one-track way of thinking - it has everything to do with iconic image and how it is projected to the viewers. Mess with that, especially with this character, and you're in troubled waters.

Melissa's comfort and well-being are certainly paramount considerations, but they can work with and around the inclement weather in Vancouver. They have the technology and access to materials and locations that would be less physically discomforting for her. What they lack is / was foresight to counteract the elements through shoot planning. This is much easier to do in Vancouver than Toronto or Montreal where inclement weather is much more severe and longer lasting.

So, please stop shaking your head and going OMG and believing that I'm taking a hissy. I'm not. What I am doing is showing very genuine concern for the choices the brass and the lead actor made regarding this switch. On one level, it's perfectly logical; but in another comic book-based vantage point (which is what the viewers are looking for), this one's a huge dud.



I gotta disagree with you. Yes, I'm sad to see the classic suit go. And I'm not personally a fan of bangs. On anyone, not just Melissa (they actually bother me more than the suit change). But their reasons for the suit change are totally valid. They can't work "around" inclement weather when they've booked time to shoot outside or on location. First off, they probably schedule those shoots well ahead of any accurate weather forecast, and trying to reschedule them would be an incredibly substantial loss in funding. I don't care if Vancouver is cheaper than L.A., booking time to shoot on location in an urban area is not cheap, and losing money just to reschedule due to weather isn't really an option. A tv show just doesn't have the budget and flexibility of a movie. That's one of the reasons why the CGI can be super questionable, at times.

Then there is the issue of production schedule. If they don't get the scenes they need shot within the allowed time for that scene in a given episode, there is no going back to get the shot, later. You either get it, or you don't. This was confirmed in an interview with Kevin Smith back when he directed his first episode. The production schedule is just too tight for that. You either get what you need on the day you have access to that location, or you don't get what you need. Period.

Not to mention that this new design probably means Melissa isn't forced to wear a corset under her costume to support her cape, now that it's the type with clasps on the shoulders. This gives her more maneuverability and range of motion.

Heck, Arrow had sleeveless arms for a single season before they transitioned back to full sleeves for warmth. I can only imagine how much worse that is for nearly bare legs with only very thin tights covering.

As for your claim that this show could end whenever...you may dislike the direction of the show in recent seasons (as have I), but the ratings were still solid, and consistently in the top 5 for CW's shows. And bottom line, networks don't cancel top performing shows. So yeah, if the show maintains anything even close to it's ranking among the CW listings, then it will at least get to season 7, which is when most lead contracts end, and presumably when Melissa's does, as well. At that point, if the show is still performing well, it really falls on her if the show will continue or not.

That's why Arrow's ending. It's still a high ranked CW show, but Stephen Amell's contract ended, and he didn't want to renew for multiple more years. So he agreed to a shortened 8th season to end the show.

The old Supergirl suit was fine, when they were shooting in L.A. Cold winters weren't exactly a concern, there. But I'm honestly surprised they kept it around for 3 years in Vancouver.

The simple matter is that yes, the old suit is iconic. And in a perfect world, Melissa would be as invulnerable as her character, and wouldn't be bothered by wearing that suit in cold temperatures. But it's just not practical for a season where night shoots hits 20-40 degrees, on a regular basis. And no "freshening up" of the old suit, while still keeping the skirt and tights, was going to change that concern. Literally no other person in the Arrowverse has been shooting wearing as little as Melissa was. If it was a limited shoot, like a movie, or a mini-series, that's fine. But this girl has been working in that suit for longer than literally any other actor who has portrayed Supergirl OR Superman, in film or tv, has had to. The closest runner up is Dean Cain. His version of Superman ran for 88 episodes. Supergirl will match that on the very first episode of the season. And we don't count Smallville because he didn't wear any sort of "suit" until season 9.

I get that you are upset with the change. What you see as the quintessential version of Supergirl has been changed. And if you choose to bail on the show, that's your choice. If you choose to stick with it, that's cool, too. As for how these changes impact the show's future, we just have to wait and see how the season pans out, and where the ratings fall. I'm also reserving final judgement to see how the suit, and Melissa's new hair, look in motion for flying and fighting scenes.

I'm not saying your concerns are not valid. They are. And I'm absolutely sure you aren't the only one that feels that way. But I would ask that you recognize that there are perhaps just as many people who love the suit. and others, like myself, who kinda fall in the middle ground. And if official promo photos of the new suit, or seeing it in action doesn't sell you, then hey, maybe it's just not for you, anymore. And if that ends up being the case, that is totally fine.

And who knows? Maybe you are right, the ratings just tank. In that situation, there are 2 likely scenarios:

1) The show ends. They would probably renew it for at least a shortened 6th season, just to give closure. And I would be okay with that, because back in season 1, I predicted this show would MAYBE get 3 seasons. I never imagined 5-6.

2) The other possibility is that the producers realize that the suit has had a detrimental effect on the show, and try to backpedal for a future season. I don't imagine them going back to the original suit, but maybe they'd create a new version that goes back to the skirted look. I don't personally see this happening, because they'd be going back to the same health, safety, and comfort concerns the original suit has. BUT...I have to acknowledge that at least it's a possibility.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can see your point, but I want to iterate that the sky is not falling, and ask that you acknowledge that, while certainly there are those who share your thoughts, it doesn't indicate a negative reaction by the fandom at large.

I truly hope some of the promotional material we get in the coming months is more to your liking.
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@ Kelly and Brierronse:

@ Brierrose: Not disputing your points. Just saying that too much tinkering will be the show's undoing. That's all! It started with the wonky writing, dodgy science and plausibility issues, character additions and losses (although to be expected), then the suit change. What's next? What more can they snafu?

@ Kelly: Valid points. But, as seen in S4, the suit change works only if it's for a short duration (e.g. one-off super suit, anti-Kryptonite suit, etc.), it does not work well over an entire season.

As for the suit changes on other shows, that's precisely why I don't bother with them. That plus the fact that Arrow and the Flash have been unwatchable story-wise the last two seasons. Horrid writing on both. Arrow should have ended mercifully last year and the Flash, despite still being popular, is running on vapour creatively. Legends of Tomorrow is another kettle of fish I won't bother to get into here.

In all honesty, the show can end anytime the PTB deem it to be expendable - 7-year contracts or not. If it doesn't do well or some unforeseen factors come into play, they will cut their losses and move on. Like pro sports, a contract is only a document with numbers on it and money exchanging hands. Business is business - the spreadsheet and the bottom line are the law.

Although the old suit may have needed freshening up a bit, it should not have been ditched. The new suit does not make Melissa look more adult or more 21st Century - it makes her look completely generic and no different than every other spandex-clad superhero out there today. This is not a good thing. And, no, it has nothing to do with sexism or being stuck in one's one-track way of thinking - it has everything to do with iconic image and how it is projected to the viewers. Mess with that, especially with this character, and you're in troubled waters.

Melissa's comfort and well-being are certainly paramount considerations, but they can work with and around the inclement weather in Vancouver. They have the technology and access to materials and locations that would be less physically discomforting for her. What they lack is / was foresight to counteract the elements through shoot planning. This is much easier to do in Vancouver than Toronto or Montreal where inclement weather is much more severe and longer lasting.

So, please stop shaking your head and going OMG and believing that I'm taking a hissy. I'm not. What I am doing is showing very genuine concern for the choices the brass and the lead actor made regarding this switch. On one level, it's perfectly logical; but in another comic book-based vantage point (which is what the viewers are looking for), this one's a huge dud.
"Contemporary" - Rick Estrin & The Nightcats, from the CD/Download Contemporary. (2019)
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Kiwi wrote:

"I just hope that if they mention (which I'm sure they will) the costume change on the show that some respect is paid to the S1 to S4 costume, that would be achieved for me if they wrote Kara saying some nice words about it. I just hope that if they mention (which I'm sure they will) the costume change on the show that some respect is paid to the S1 to S4 costume, that would be achieved for me if they wrote Kara saying some nice words about it. "

******

Unfortunately, don't expect this to happen, especially with the current showrunners they have. The SDCC panel gave a good indication as to where their misguided line of thinking is. They threw shade at the skirt and it was more of a backhanded brush-off to the patriarchy. They have no real, tangible concept of the power of culture, icon status, effective imagery and female power projection.

You included two picture attachments; one is of Wonder Woman and one of the new Supergirl suit. Without getting into the female empowerment brouhaha, which one strikes you like a massive thunderbolt and makes you sit up and take immediate notice? For me, from a culture, image and icon vantage point, the Wonder Woman one wins by a Force 10 tsunami wave. By the way, notice what she is NOT wearing. And, no, there is no sexist connotation implied, assumed or intended in any way, shape or form.

I'm not saying that pants are bad and skirts are good, I'm simply pointing out that the WW version projects power, assurance and femininity more effectively than the, dare I say it, the androgynous, generic and contrived money-grabbing / narrow fanboy interpretation version they're going with on Supergirl in S5. As a woman, Patty Jenkins, the director for the WW project, knew this acutely and she used this to her full advantage and credit. It also helped that Gal Gadot was able to project this on screen accordingly.

The new Supergirl suit is a carbon / photocopy of Tyler Hoechlin's Superman suit. This project was originally intended to distance her from the Superman male-only mythos and tell her story in her own unique way. On some levels the show has succeeded, but the reversion to a Superman-type suit has de-feminised the character, disempowered her and genericised her immediately recognisable look. There is little difference between her generic look (cape notwithstanding), and Captain Marvel's.

All I'm really saying is one of the key pillars of the Supergirl project (the suit with the skirt) has been dislodged and removed and replaced with something that cannot possibly withstand the socio-cultural, iconographic scrutiny. Never mind the already inherent structural problems of the show (story and character development, etc.), the removal of the red motif (the skirt) at the midpoint, in favour of an all-blue suit, regardless of lighting or anticipated power and confidence projection, will do the opposite of what is intended.

If they really needed to go with a pants version, it should have been as a series finale reveal or used from the get-go in the proposed 2021-2022 film. It will work, with drastic modifications to the overall design and colour structure (arrangement), if it is used from the outset in the film. They will be going with a different iteration. New film = new character interpretation and new suit.
"Contemporary" - Rick Estrin & The Nightcats, from the CD/Download Contemporary. (2019)
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The more pictures I see, the more the new suit is growing on me. Apart from the practical reasons (comfort, freedom of movement, dignity, and character progression), I'm coming to appreciate it aesthetically. At first I thought it was too blue, but the cape and the new boots provide plenty of red, and the belt really pops. Plus it just looks strong and powerful. I think it will be a big hit.
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I'm sorry, I have a hard time seeing this as not coming off as a hissy fit among the bros. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong....but that is how it is coming off, and that is why I said what I said. I have to shake my head, because I don't have an actual response to any of this. I just think there is far too much wringing of hands of this. I see it as being looked at and treated far differently than the guys changes in their suits. As a woman, that is the lens that I look through, and that is what I see. Yes there was wringing of hands with the other shows suit changes, good lord....THE STRAP, THE STRAP, but the shows continue.

And I will end with, as long as Melissa wants play this character it will be on the CW. Has nothing to do with a suit, what happened in what season. They are going to do what they believe is right and needed, and it is their right to do it. This is a creative process, not a service to us. We are not a customer with "the customer is always right" rights.....we just aren't.

Do I hope that changes in the suit are bringing in changes to the use of Supergirl on her series? You bet, and if that means a change in the suit, then BRING IT ON! This is one time I can say screw history, I want more Supergirl on her series, and if this ushers that in........COOL. Again, I apologize is I come off as blah on people's sorrow of losing the skirt. I am simply calling it as I see it.
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People seem to forget that despite the best efforts to freshen up / modernise / make more comfortable the look and to please Melissa and the brass, that it is still a raging dumpster fire. Putting it under different lighting still doesn't polish it any more or make it any more favourable. A dookie is still a dookie.




There is no reason to call it a dumpster fire, especially repeatedly, or compare it to a "dookie". And by saying "people seem to forget", you make it seem like your opinions are the objective fact, rather than what they are, which is your subjective opinion. Again, I'm not the biggest fan of the suit. I'd prefer the old suit. But I acknowledge that there are people out there that seem to legitimately love it.

And calling Melissa's appearance "tired an haggard"? Was there really a reason for that? Not to mention that she's probably more rested than she's been in years, because it's the beginning of the season, and this is the first time she hasn't done a film, tv show, or broadway show during her summer hiatus.

I'm not trying to insult you, or anything like that. I'm merely expressing that when you state your opinions in a seemingly disrespectful manner, I can't take the post seriously, and it discredits some of your legitimate points.
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@Romulus, the post was getting big, so I am not quoting you.

Thank you for your kind reply.

I have not been happy with how the show has been going since S2. With a few exceptions anyways. (But a lot of the audience do seem to like it and consider fourth the best season. And they may have their tastes.)

Irrespective of that, I don't agree with your underlying assumptions about the reasons for the show's direction and Melissa when there is nothing much to backup these points. That was what I wanted to say. It doesn't matter the actors are under gag orders. They haven't said it. Hence, it is not to be assumed.

There are certain implied assumptions that we make about women and that ends up being displayed in situations such as this. And, at times, they are more latent and we make them unaware.

Thus, I was not asking you to mince your words. I was asking you to examine your assumptions. I never considered it a malicious attack on Melissa made intentionally to hurt. I just consider that the underlying assumptions were sexist and gendered (all of them including about her looks). And disrespectful.

Were you asking Stephen and Grant to start a family since their shows are bad? Or any guy who got engaged and was having a bad show in your opinion but popular in general?

If you were asking them to do that, well then. I stand corrected and I apologise.

If not, I stand by my statement.
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@Romulus, the post was getting big, so I am not quoting you.

Thank you for your kind reply.

I have not been happy with how the show has been going since S2. With a few exceptions anyways. (But a lot of the audience do seem to like it and consider fourth the best season. And they may have their tastes.)

Irrespective of that, I don't agree with your underlying assumptions about the reasons for the show's direction and Melissa when there is nothing much to backup these points. That was what I wanted to say. It doesn't matter the actors are under gag orders. They haven't said it. Hence, it is not to be assumed.

There are certain implied assumptions that we make about women and that ends up being displayed in situations such as this. And, at times, they are more latent and we make them unaware.

Thus, I was not asking you to mince your words. I was asking you to examine your assumptions. I never considered it a malicious attack on Melissa made intentionally to hurt. I just consider that the underlying assumptions were sexist and gendered (all of them including about her looks). And disrespectful.

Were you asking Stephen and Grant to start a family since their shows are bad? Or any guy who got engaged and was having a bad show in your opinion but popular in general?

If you were asking them to do that, well then. I stand corrected and I apologise.

If not, I stand by my statement.


I will quote you....lol

And I agree, I don't see any of the statements in here misogynistic in nature, but they are stereotypical in nature, in that as you stated SSAV male actors are not asked these questions, nor are assumptions made like those made here. If those things are not called out, they will continue and I believe that is one of the things this series is fighting against, and I think it is hitting home and some are changing, or shouting foul.

I have no answer really for those that do not like the suit, because it isn't the skirt. Not liking the suit is not a big deal to me, that is simply an opinion being given, you want the skirt, ok........not gonna happen, but ok. But when assumptions are made as to why there is a change, or the actor is asking things that diminish the character, or the sky is falling....then I will speak to those things. People that don't like the color, not enough red, etc.....that is a valid point, but I'm sorry I do not see "its just too much of a change" as a valid point, change happens, this character is evolving and what works on a piece of paper drawn, does not necessarily work in live action over the life of a series, things have to change or they become stagnant. That is the nature of it.

I have to say, yes I have seen the tweets of "I miss her legs", "I miss the sexy", etc....but honestly no where near the number I thought we would have....I'm actually surprised and happily surprised at that. I do, however believe some are veiled in "history of the character in print", etc. The history of this character in print, has not always been a good one, and unfortunately (In my opinion) the print version has not evolved nearly enough, and I count that as simply not enough female artists out there to counter the decades of no real evolution of the character;s look, other than what a male artist thinks she should look like in his mind. We are at the cusp of seeing that change, and I for one am so proud that Melissa and this series are leading the way in the evolution of this character's look, Melissa has the nature of the character down, and wearing pants is not going to change that sooooooooo......bravo, and as a woman all I can say is.....it's about damn time.
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There is going to be times where it looks like that for gender equality it is at the expense of the other, simply because the other for centuries has had the upper hand. In this country it has only been 100 years of Women having the right to vote, and we are "just now" getting solid representation in our government. So please, do not talk to me about........oooooh, I call foul because you say you want equality, and it is at my expense as a man. Um, nooooo......just having to push back because it has been a full on battle to even get to where we are now, and still FAAAAAAAAAAAAR from being equal in many areas of society. So, I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy where that is concerned. We are not going to gain equality without men losing something, sorry......it is just how it is. That loss is not something that degrades men, that is not what is happening. That loss is simply women gaining the power to speak for themselves, to make decisions for themselves, to be given the right to change things because they see and feel the need to do so. The equality comes with allowing change, it isn't about taking something away...it is about giving something back that wasn't yours to begin with.
I'm not sure if you're directing this at me or not, but I'm a woman and have felt the brunt of inequality and been in the thick of fighting for it longer than most of those on this show have even been born. So, I'm fully aware of what that looks like and well versed in the history of women's rights in the United States.

My position is that we, as a society, should have the belief that we want to strive toward putting all individuals, from all walks of life - be that gender, race, sexual orientation, socioeconomic, etc. - to the same high level of equality. There is an argument that some individuals are already at that level, and if so, fair enough. But, most (including both men and women) are not in all areas of life. And to state that men should be expected to lose something because they had something that they shouldn't have had in the first place, is a slap in the face to those who actually haven't had it and struggle in life every day, just as women do. All we're doing when we make statements such as that is alienating folks who work hard to try and and achieve a minimum level in standard of living. Additionally, it creates a further division in our society, one that we don't need to widen, but rather, bring together.

This approach doesn't take anything away from women gaining equality because IF we have the belief that we are working at putting all individuals on that same equal level, women's rise to it will naturally occur. Yes, we have more women represented in the House than we ever have had before. The reason for this is not because these women went into their districts and talked about taking back something that women had lost. Instead, it's because these women had the fortitude to get involved, were encouraged by others to believe that they could do it and then went in and talked to their constituents about how their district could gain by having them represent them. It's all about having conversations with other citizens that don't swing from one extreme to another.
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@SSAV and @Sully,

Re: Recent posts.

Excellent points and excellent analogies! Very well thought out. Please continue with these lines of thinking. This is what we should be looking at and focusing on. :)
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And yes, we discussed those reasons in the news section. All totally valid reasons to change to pants. And seeing as this is the Crisis season......even better time to change to pants.....hopefully she can get more action in the crossover.
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Are u kidding me, if it is her last season on her contract then maybe.....but last season because of the suit change????? Seriously?

I didn't like the first half of the season, made that very clear here.....did not like the writing at all....not enough Supergirl in action for me. HOWEVER, places like IGN saw it as the best of all 4 seasons, a website FULL OF PURISTS....so though I didn't like it, there were plenty of longtime Supergirl comicbook fans that loved it....I respect that...and respected their opinion, I'm glad they enjoyed it.

So unless Melissa signed a 5 season contract, this won't be the last season.

Why is it that the other shows can go through 4 and 5 suit changes......but OOOOOMMMMGGGGGG Supergirl wants to come off the page into the 21st century and it is heresy.

SMH, I just don't get it.....

Oh well looking forward to SDCC and the trailer, new flying scenes, and if I had my guess far more action from Supergirl....
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@ Kiwi,

Yes indeed! (Also Imho) :)
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Great Rao just when I thought this thread was dead.

*cough cough* Broken Record *cough cough*


****

Skipping right along. Bless your heart! You graced us with a surprise visit. Thanks for stopping by! I'd suggest a lozenge for that tickle in your throat. It'll put you right.
Hummm I believe the throat irritation started in another thread anyone want to borrow a Ricola. Others have new opinions or information so why shouldn't I be interested in those. If people have something new they want to share then the thread is worthwhile, if all that's happening is people restating their opinions then it's lost it's value.
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Can’t wait to hear the “anti toxic masculinity” comment to explain the suit. You just know it’s coming. Calling it here.
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Great Rao just when I thought this thread was dead.

*cough cough* Broken Record *cough cough*


****

Skipping right along. Bless your heart! You graced us with a surprise visit. Thanks for stopping by! I'd suggest a lozenge for that tickle in your throat. It'll put you right.
"Contemporary" - Rick Estrin & The Nightcats, from the CD/Download Contemporary. (2019)
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That's a nice list, Kiwi!

I'd probably rank the Slater version a little lower, as I prefer the more muted tones of the Benoist S1-4 version, which would be my #1.

Points for including Electra Woman & Dyna Girl. That brings back memories. :D My 7 year old self noticed that the actor who played their tech support guy, Frank (Norman Alden), sounded an awful lot like Aquaman from Super Friends (voiced by same).

Would it be too early to include Batwoman on the list? I have doubts about a lot of things, but they nailed the costume.

The Yvonne Craig Batgirl costume, like the Batman show itself, represented the era, that's for sure.
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