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  4. Tuesday, 21 February 2017
Good evening everyone. Let me start this post off by saying I am not equipped to handle this topic correctly or justly. I am going to tread as softly as I can and I would also like to note that any name-calling, anti-LGBT language or offense to the mandatory rules required to use this forum will be met with swift and appropriate consequences.

So with that said, I have noticed a growing divide in the Supergirl fandom this season and I need help understanding it. While this site and its users have kept things predominately fair and respectful, many other social media platforms seem to be pitting fans against each other for liking different aspects of the show.

Before I name sides and begin to try and find a reason behind the animosity lets name some of the changes that have happened between season 1 and season 2 first.

  • The Show has gained some characters and lost some characters.
  • The Show is on a new network.
  • The Show's survival isn't uncertain.
  • Supergirl.tv has grown to reach a larger audience.
  • Our social media presence has tripped since season one.

I want to illustrate these changes first because my perception of this fandom divide may have always been there and due to the above mentioned circumstances, I am just now becoming aware of it. But if these reasons are not the cause to my illumination then I am concerned.

Season 1 is different from season 2 for many reasons and that is just the nature of broadcast television. However, fans (and let me be clear I am not calling anyone out on this site) were more supportive. It felt like we were all an audience of a show that brought us together and we all shared a love for a growing hero's story. Despite plot-lines, rough early writing and power fluctuations, we all were able to comment on parts of the show we didn't like while still stating our love for the show.

Where has that gone?

In Season 2, the show has decided to cover more topics in a superheroes life some of which are more progressive leaning. A show with purpose and the platform to conquer tough issues while still maintaining its entertaining nature seems like a good thing, yet I feel we as fans are more divided than ever.

Put simply, if you like Maggie Sawyer and Alex Danver's relationship, why don't you like Mon-El? If you're a Lena supporter, why do you hate Guardian's screen-time? Why can't an episode be good if it doesn't have Cat Grant in it? Obviously these are all just examples of the absolutist feelings we are seeing out there. There are many other examples that don't need to be shared to illustrate my point.

Somewhere along the line sides were drawn and a solid fan-base became split. This is where things get very tricky for me. It's the reason I say I am not equipped to handle this topic and where I will choose to ask to be educated rather than seek a solution.

Appropriate and positive representation of the LGBT community on television has been lacking for many many years. There are legitimate concerns with how LGBT community members are portrayed in the media from stereotyping, senseless deaths, and even screen-time. Obviously the Maggie and Alex story-line falls into this category of LGBT representation in the media which is why begin to ask for clarity.

When did there become an attitude of absolution? Many of the comments I see on social media are of the nature that say "my view is right, yours is wrong and no one supports you because what I want is what everyone wants". In season 1 it felt like we were all able to say, "I didn't care for aspect X but I still enjoy the show and can afford that others may enjoy aspect X knowing that it still didn't resonate with me."

There are concerns here, however, for equality. Is a positive LGBT relationship being given appropriate screen-time to maintain its positive message? That is not for me to decide but can be a valuable reason to be concerned over screen-time. It however, shouldn't mean that other story-lines in the show shouldn't be told.

Perhaps I am letting social media get the better of me. Because of our site's growth, I am seeing exponentially more messages than I used to. Maybe this divide isn't really there and I am just succumbing to internet trolls. Trolls don't need to back up their absolutist declarations, they just submit them like breathing.

All in all, I just don't understand the new feelings of this fandom taking sides. The show has problems without a doubt, but it isn't bad enough that we need to take sides. Perhaps there are too many story-lines going on this season or too many new characters or even a lack of focus on an overarching season goal. But in the end can't we do like Kara did in Myriad and be stronger together?

I am not sure what its going to take to heal this fandom, or if it even needs to be healed or united but based solely on my perception, we were a united group of fans last season and it pains me to see this growing divide this year.

To clarify my point, I am in no way saying that I am disappointed in any of our very valued users here as you all have made this site's community a bright and caring group of people. I am reflecting more on what happens outside our proverbial site walls.

Do you have any ideas what can be done? ... El May Arah
You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.
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Great comments from our members. Good reading. Keep it up. :)
"Contemporary" - Rick Estrin & The Nightcats, from the CD/Download Contemporary. (2019)
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I have seen a great many comments here and elsewhere saying Mon El-Kara ship is great because Mon-El's and Kara's (or Chris' and Melissa's) chemistry is great.

That is a pretty good reason for falling for someone. a. the on-screen chemistry is great. b. he is funny.

Think of it from the POV of a Kara-James shipper.

She dropped a perfectly great guy for someone who is a jerk and who is also in this culture, the epitome of white privilege. (As I said before, she didn't stay firm on that whole focusing on her career bit for long.)

If you don't see yourself represented in a leading way all that much, and if you see yourself being powerless in a lot of situations and being discriminated against just because of your colour, and you see the same thing enacted on screen. (or even a nerd, in the case, of Winn).

It's a story and story has effects on people. In real-life, you could say you fall for whom you will, but in stories, what you show is a choice from the show-runners. In real-life, you could say that Kara could not hold to her promise to explore her career and being single further, that you could have both at the same time, but in the story, the message you are saying is that Kara cannot be happy being single.

See how lonely she was before she confessed her liking for Mon El. It is not because her friends were abandoning for their own things (which would have been a great reason that they could have explored), it was because she had no romance in her life. Even her missing Alex is because, Alex says, she is trying not to focus on Mon El. Owing to her abandonment issues. Not because she misses her sister who has been with her from the day she landed on earth and was now spending all her free time with her new love, but because she has feelings for Mon El, which she is trying to ignore. Not because her sister missed her earth birthday, the day which would have officially marked that she has spent more time with Danvers and on Earth than with her own parents and her planet, (13 as opposed to 12).

Besides, you can't have it both ways. When people point out the abusive and rather harmful messages embedded in the show, you can't say "Oh! This is just a TV show and fictional characters; people, should not bother so much" (to put it gently) and then, when you point out how the story doesn't work because messaging is weird that "But, this is how it happens in real life. People may make resolutions but fail them all the time."

I am not attacking Kara-Mon El ships here. I am just listing out the POVs. Though, as far as Mon El is concerned most of it match (except, I used to like him and I like Chris Wood).

Besides, there is chemistry.

Speaking of that.

Kara-Lena shippers and how they hate Mon El so much.

Think of it from their perspective:

If Lena was a guy, and he had the same chemistry with Kara--basically, what is going on with Mon El (the actors, I mean)--the show would have gone for that relationship. Like Monica and Chandler.

Instead, just because Lena is a woman the show-runners wouldn't. And a lot of folks' attitude to Kara-Lena shippers is at best "Oh, those poor delusional folks..." and at worst "Why do they want more? Don't they have a gay character already? This is a straight show." May be said a bit more politely.

The above appears very condescending to gay folks. It is like they are being told: "Hey! We gave you one character! Be happy with it. Just how demanding are you?". The message is: This is a world of straight people, made for straight folks, and any scraps they get, the gay people should be grateful for it."

Or... "Why don't they just make shows for themselves, then?"

If, the show-runners could make a gay Supergirl and have the show survive then that would be a miracle. More so than POC although, I think it works quite to a great extent there too. We would have seen a proliferation of minority-based shows if those were really a lucrative option.

[Basically, this is the story of every minority people who want to see themselves in the stories they consume. It's their powerlessness. Any right they have, any happiness they could get, can be taken away at the whim of the majority. And the powerful, some of them, think that the little bit of representation they get is just enough or some times too much. An implied, "Take it where we can't see it." Basically, they (we, really, I am gay, POC, woman, and yeah most of the time aromantic :) ) have to fight for stuff which a lot of people get without asking. And even after the fighting, what they have is fragile and can be taken away so very easily.]

When you get comments like that directed at you, the dislike you feel for a Kara-Mon El ship is quite understandable. Even if you know, quite positively, that Kara-Lena ship is never going to happen in Canon. Even if you know that Alex is a secondary character and Maggie a tertiary character, so Alex-Maggie is never going to get much screen time when compared to the cis-het ship. Even if you know that, may be, just may be, Mehcad Brooks had more chemistry with Kara as a friend than as a romantic interest. Although, in James' case, it may be possible that folks are still hopeful of a potential romance there. I don't know.

As for the people who employ bullying in twitter and elsewhere, well, they are, as Everafr said possibly kids. Hopefully. If not. Well, hope they get better, but, I won't get into a relationship with them, if they promise to do better based just on that promise. ;-)

And none of this is a whole lot of how the group in which I fall feel. Not to mention I myself feel. :)
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Jondix squeeze kiwi ... and gets an orange juice ... kidding, my hug was too hard :-*
evrafter where are you ?


Over here *waves and jumps up and down*
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I had to split my comment; it was turning out to be too long.

Put simply, if you like Maggie Sawyer and Alex Danver's relationship, why don't you like Mon-El?


Well, I am not the person to whom this question is directed at here because I don't ship either of them. (I have noticed over the years that I have a preference for the familial and platonic relationships over romance. Unlike many who think that having a romance is necessary for a fulfilling life, I think I am just fine with friends and family. I am basically asexual and most-of-the-time, though not always, aromantic.)

But, I have been hanging around in tumblr a lot, and other review sites, so I can offer some insights, I believe. :) Besides, thoughts from some of us folks who are here for the Danvers and folks from Season 1 might also help, right?

Okay.

Alex-Maggie vs. Mon El

Alex's relationship with Maggie has been almost wholly from the point of view of Alex; the character we have been invested in since season 1.

Besides, that you can kind of understand why Alex falls for Maggie. Someone who fights against crime; is open-minded; likes aliens (which is very important to Alex for obvious reasons); is brave and mostly generous.

Alex's coming out arc has been very well handled by the show. A lot of gay people saw themselves and their own experience in that. I saw myself in that.

And because we cannot ignore representation and the message the show is sending.

There has been a lot of happiness that it gave gay folks including teens. It gave validation to a lot of adults who barely see themselves in TV shows especially when it comes to cop shows, procedural and superhero shows.

All of these make them very invested in Alex-Maggie.

Compare that to Mon El.

Ignore the actor and the chemistry between Melissa and Chris for a moment.

His story line is basically this. Told, not from Kara's, our hero's, point of view, but from the point of view of Mon El.

Rich privileged guy (we don't know he is a prince, but we are pretty sure), who has grown up with not a care in the world. Shows the same attitude in the outside world when he comes across our lead character, the woman. He thinks she is selfish and attention-seeking. He doesn't see the point of all this caring for other people.

After a lot of harping from other people, including Alex, he decides that he could do something. (There was this one happening during that cage episode, Changing? when he offers help to someone; that was cool, but it was also fleeting and not touched up on.)

And then, he falls for our lead-character. Because she is pretty decent during the time when the two of them spend time in a cage. Very brave.

And in the next couple of episodes he is back not being all that caring about other people but Kara; he comes to Cat Co and accompanies Kara not because it is the right thing to do but because he wants to spend time with her. And then, he is back to being rather a jerk. Or, at least, telling Kara not to go looking for abducted strangers. Not listening when he is asked to go for backup and instead endangering her. Telling her, that she was looking for trouble when she tries to save them.

But, his crush for her continues, and he falls for her. Because she is very brave this time around too.

And, this is in canon, he says it that he likes her that is why he was with her.

And then, he pines for her by drinking club soda (that by the way is not changing for your love; or being inspired; that is wallowing. and telling his date about his crush).

And Kara is told that.

And the next episode, Kara suddenly decides that she is falling for him too. For what reason? We are not shown that at all. For what reason other than the fact that her friends with their new toys, and her sister with her new love, are ignoring her?

She make an odd speech about him keeping on proving her wrong, which is not quite the truth. He doesn't prove her wrong. She had too low an expectation from him owing to the prejudices, and with that in mind, anything half-way decent he does is considered great in her eyes. (It'd be an interesting story arc if that is what is happening here. That her eyes are blind the other way because she is compensating for her prejudices too much.)

And then, in the previous episode, he tells her that "she is full of herself" and then at the end that she is his kryptonite, and that is why he kept doing all those bad things in this episode. And then, he apologises, and she kisses him.

He keeps hurting her by saying bad things to her. And then apologising. He keeps disappointing her. He keeps saying he is trying, although, we are not shown where he is trying (except when he tries to backup Kara, and even there, he doesn't listen to her; it could be more of a cultural, I need to protect my mate who belongs to me thing and that is how he acts).

And then he ends it by saying all those bad things he did this episode was owing to his love for her. She was the reason for his weakness and his bad choices.

Have you ever heard that anywhere else before? Any of this story?

At best, it is a story that we have seen a lot before. So many times that it is basically a cliche. Rich entitled guy, meets a girl, is touched because she is so unlike what he has encountered until now, and falls for her. She reciprocates because what else could she do? He likes her, so she should reciprocate. They end up married and live happily ever after. They make a great team and fight crime together. The end.

At worst. It is a (not may be "the";) picture of an abusive relationship where one of the people involved is not all that great, keeps failing, keeps promising to do better, and then gets forgiven just because he apologises. And oh, and blames at least some, if not all, of his bad choices on the women he "allegedly" crushes on.

And think, that all of this is played unfortunately by an actor who is white, straight and male. With his richness, he is the epitome of privilege in US.

What kind of an idea does this reinforce? What kind of message does that send to any young person watching that. Or a person of any age.

Boys, as long as you promise to do better, even if you don't do well, you will get your dream girl. Boys, that girl saying no to you, doesn't really mean it. She really loves you and is just not aware of it yet. Boys, people will and should always make allowances for your background and your poor upbringing, just like the viewers of the show has been making allowances for Mon El being a Daxamite. I mean the poor guy grew up in that culture. Cut him slack.

Boys, if you are a white guy, you just have to promise to be better. Especially, if instead of being a nerd, geek, insecure kind of person (like Winn), you are the football jock.

While if you are black, like James, you will be dropped for no reason. Even if you are heroic, kind, generous and all that. (The reason that she wants to find herself would have made sense if they had stuck with it; instead, she falls for the next guy who confesses his feelings to her.). And that goes for the nerd too, may be.

Girls: A. If a guy like Mon El confesses his feelings to you, you should totally return that feeling. It'd be weird if you don't. That is what happens in every story. B. See he apologises after being a jerk, so that is all right. C. as of this episode. all the bad choices that your partner makes, that is your fault. And D. no matter how bad, you always give the guy a chance.

Oh and boys and girls, Kara was lonely because she said no to Mon El. And she deserves that fate because she rejected the guy. After he risked his heart for her. (I have seen screenshot of YouTube comments to that effect.) And she dumped James too.

People who do ship Mon El and Kara do say that he is from a different culture and so he cannot be blamed for his attitude and also that he is trying. Although, we have barely seen anything at all where he tries (except for that one second thing at the end of Changing). He does not interact at all with others. All his time is spent with Kara, so we don't even know what he is like in her absence.

So, basically, the show, and everyone who loves the ship seems to want Kara and everyone who opposes the ship to give him credit for what he hasn't done based on what he vows he would do. In show, he might end up fighting for the good. In real-life, how good a message that is I am not too sure. Most of the time, it looks like a recipe for disaster.

Not to mention, how cliched.

And did I say, all the falling for her is shown from his point of view, not hers? In her show, it is his feelings that is the POV. That matters and are given centre stage. She reacts to his. It is not her initiative.

So, Sanvers ship and Mon-El-Kara ships are very different.

(Cont'd) in the next comment. :)
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Well, everybody is the result of their life experiences and values, so comparaison is always going to be part of the exchanges betwin people. But as an individual i'm aware that what i think today maybe not be the same tomorrow because of the masses of experiences i keep having. That's why even if its relevant to give an opinion about something i like or not, i don't find useful to compare situations and characters.

I read a lot of comments about the writing, but i'm one who think that there are a lot of layers between what is in the mind of the writer and what's delivered.
The actors have a part to do with it (and that is probably why i like Melissa Benoist interpretation of Kara so much and maybe someone else could have a total different effect on ma vision of the show).
You can say one ligne of dialog in many differents ways an it's not going to say the same thing. You can said it the same way everytime and not hear the same thing either. Everything is subjectif and very personal in that departement for me.
At that you can add the directors have also a big part to play etc...

Anyway the advice for getting back to a comunity is to enjoy what you like and not focus your energy towards what you don't like. (i hope i speak english by the way!)
I would spend all of my days on set watching the show being made
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kiwi wrote something, but someone cut it (^_^)


evrafter, must be time for a group hug.


Jondix squeeze kiwi ... and gets an orange juice ... kidding, my hug was too hard :-*
evrafter where are you ?
I would spend all of my days on set watching the show being made
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Hmm... I think it is time for my essay because brevity is something I don't know the meaning of. :)
Okay.

I don't follow Supergirl stuff on twitter (except for taking an occasional look at Chyler's twitter page.) So, I am not sure what's going on there. And, on tumblr, I only follow a select community; so I have not seen much hatred there either. I have heard of it a lot, some of it genuine criticism, and a lot of twitter stuff.

Note before I start: This is not an excuse for any venomous comment anywhere from anyone. There is no excuse for not being decent to other people no matter what their values while talking about a show (if it's a life/death situation or a matter of civic rights or you are being attacked, you may get a little emotional. but this is not about that.)

Disclaimer: The POVs expressed are mine own, but I have noticed a lot of criticism on tumblr, and some of it is derived from empathy. It may be just one POV among many. :)
If you're a Lena supporter, why do you hate Guardian's screen-time?


I think the comparison is between apples and beef here. Just like James in the Lena episode. All the ire directed at the Guardian arc is not about the increased screen time. It was not there much in the previous season, and James was the love interest!

It's about how sloppily the character has been written. And especially, the entitlement with which he treats the other characters. James thinks that he is owed support from Winn and Kara. He does not appreciate that Winn is risking his job and his life, and stealing from the government to ensure that he stays alive. He doesn't appreciate that Kara is only looking out for his safety.

And worse, in a show watched by a lot of people who are not superheroes but who contribute to society in a lot of different ways such as health workers, teachers, reporters and whatever, he considers the job he does as not being equal to the Supers. And since the writers seem to be on his side, it is all the more like, the show is telling people subtly that violently going at drug dealers and criminals is the only valuable and decent way you could contribute to society.

I mean, it defies logic. If I wanted to compete, I'd compete with someone from a position of my strength. Not of theirs. How can you compete with these folks in superheroics? Your strength is journalism, employ that.

And if it is not about competition as James says, but about making a difference. Again, I'd use my strength. And leave law enforcement to the law enforcement.

How's James with all his tech and Winn's support a hero and not Maggie who does whatever she does without any of that? Or Alex who only, as far as I have seen, has weapon, no additional armour or shield?

By the way, many James supporters do not see some of these aspects, or chose to ignore it because he was a rather decent character in Season 1, and because like any member of a discriminated against community, you tend to overlook deficiencies and look at strengths of a person of your own; and from where they are standing, he is willing to risk his life for others, he is loyal, and he tries to clean up crime. The entitlement issues they probably ignore as poor writing. Basically, they are looking at him with the season-1 lense, with the added good qualities of heroism.

Others may not be part of a minority community, as in a POC, but may empathise for the same reasons.

Lena's story on the other hand is written so as to appeal to anyone with any empathy. She is introduced as someone who wants to step away from the evil shadow of her step brother. Anyone who knows anything about Superman knows how tough a struggle that is with a name like Luthor.

Then, you get to know more about her, and you realise that her mother has been ill treating her since she was a baby. That possibly she lost her mother who had lover her at that same young age. How can anyone not feel for her at that?

And then, she shows a penchant for defying her mother who has been so emotionally abusive to her.

She has shown herself to be generous, at least to Kara (we don't see her anywhere else; but see Kara is a mere reporter, and she is a rich lady with a lot of assets; she is honest, but she is welcoming despite that.). And brave (she has risked her life for things that she believed in) and resourceful and intelligent (as when she took on those villains her mother sent using some device that I don't remember the name of; as well, as during the Medusa episode).

To top it all, her mother is emotionally manipulating her. Or, has been.

And then, there is the mystery about her motives. Because she is such a complex character, you want her to win this fight and emerge on the side of good.

It'd be very difficult for any viewer to not like this combo.

(All in all, I think Lena is the best character they have added to the show this season.)

Essentially I think the conflict in James' life and the arc looks very made-up and tacked on. While Lena's looks like something that can happen to anyone; natural and rich in life.
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Unfortunately we can't do anything but stay focus on the positive. Like Supergirl keep the faith and spread your enjoyment to the show. The rest follows or not, but the people looking for it will come (i so like "Field of Dreams" movie sorry).
But everything is a projection of personal feeling about how people think thing should be for there own approval. We are talking about fictional characters, they don't even exist. So hating is really about themself. But it work both ways, love as well. We can relate for the feeling of love that procure and we enjoy that.
So the first thing i remember is that actors are humans with feelings. No need to put them under any circumstances in harms way. I don't like all characters doesn't mean i'm going to hate the actor incarnate him or her, it serve nothing.
Two, when producers talk about "centric" episode, it can not be the main story, we still on the Supergirl show. That means second principal arc and i'm not shocked about it. Anyway, i'm glad i found that site and forum and i stick with it (also glad i'm not elsewhere :D for my good health)
Admin, internet is a living thing, so don't worry, you're doing a good job.
I would spend all of my days on set watching the show being made
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Also this site is awesome. Thanks admin very much for providing such a service.
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I would think the largest fandom civil war is either between Mon-El shippers and Lena shippers or Guardian haters and Mon-El haters. About Sanvers I think we recall I got involved in a "fight" earlier, but that was because I felt there was too much drama involving Sanvers, not because of LGBT. Either way I think that was resolved too and I'm actually pretty fine about their relationship.
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I wish I could be of some help here. was the Valentine's day episode, after all. One might have proposed that therefore each of these events we saw peaked for this episode and we will be seeing something else at least more in the future. To satisfy all the readers, the shows would need to be three hours long. Daily. It seems to me that the threads here have mostly been reasonable, even on a topic as delicate as the one noted by the administrator. However, please be nice, everyone. It matters.I write as someone who made a few suggestions last year about the rules as written, and occasionally has suggested things this year.

Having said that, let me urge you all to punch up the "support" button if you enjoy being here.
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I actually just mentioned something along these same lines in last night's episode thread our Kiwi always sets up for us. Personally, I think you did a terrific job addressing the issue.

I actually appreciate the fans who populate this forum. On the news page, comments seem to stray towards being a bit "harsh" from time to time. But the same harshness doesn't seem to spill over into the forum as much.

As for me, I'm not a huge "Sanvers" fan, for my own personal reasons. But, I certainly wouldn't attack or put down a Team Sanvers member. And, I've actually appreciated the incredible acting from both ladies. But my goodnes...you are absolutely right... I have seen some rather venomous battles out there from all kinds of Supergirl fanbases... Team Karmel going after Sanvers while Supercorp (Lena-Kara shippers) go after Karmel.... guardian... And all other things you've mentioned, above. I once made the mistake (before Sanvers was even a thing or that Alex was even gay), of tweeting the writers during an episode about Winn and Alex being awesome together in scenes and... MAN!!...it was like the deep dark web awakened and attacked me like a pack of ravenous wolves..."She's GAY, you blankety blank blank!!!!" Foul language, calling me foul slangs, trying to go through my whole twitter. So I quickly retreated back to our forum family. We disagree, from time to time... Like you mentioned. We break scenes down and discuss weaknesses. But do so, generally, fairly, respectfully, and meet each other in "the middle" when we don't end up on the same "side" of issues.

I think perhaps...the show has picked up some younger fans this season??...which has its pros and cons. The only real con being, PERHAPS... SOME of the newer fans don't always choose the best path for discussing differences? But, I guess you could say not all of the older fanbase choose their words wisely, either. lol

But of all the sites I feel most comfortable participating in...the site I feel contains more of the O.G. Supergirl fans... (fans from the first days of it airing)...seem to have found their way here. And then I've enjoyed seeing THOSE peeps welcoming new forum members.

Not sure much can be done off site. I like what Kelly suggested to me in the other thread, when I mentioned what I had witnessed last night.. the venom being spewed in the Supergirl "thread" as it was trending.. She suggested mute and block. Saddly it wasnt in my newsfeed that I COULD block. I'll just have to learn not to get hyped to see what comments were flooding the trend.

Keep up the terrific job you're doing here admin. Really...all we as Team Supergirl can do here is not jump into the venom, welcome new commentors, and gently steer them to keep comments positive.
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