So, I've been thinking about Supergirl's first 2 seasons.
Don't get me wrong. I loved them. But something has been lacking. A REAL threat to Supergirl.
I'd love a really big fight between Supergirl and Reign. This series has sorely lacked REAL physical threats against Supergirl, and that's exactly the type of possibility Reign could present.
Season one just didn't have the right fight choreographers or budget, due to CBS and filming in LA. That's why half our fights were heat vision based. Season two had marked improvements in production quality and fight choreography. But all the "big threats" went down too easy. The cage fight in S2e4, "Survivors", could have been good, but it was barely a fight at all. There was real peril with Parasite, and how he drained both Supergirl and J'onn, but again, not really a fight. Just a quick draining scene. And in both of those episodes, when Kara has her second encounters with the villains, she beats them instantly...it just doesn't emphasize that they were ever a real threat to the Girl of Steel.
The fights with Henshaw in "The Darkest Places" and Superman in the S2 finale came close. The latter far more than the former.
I'm looking for a threat that's equivalent to how Merlin/Arrow's or Ra's/Arrow's first encounter, or the first fight between Flash/Reverse Flash, or Flash/Zoom.
In all of those examples, the hero was defeated. Overwhelmingly. But this set the tone for the rest of the season. It established just how dangerous their villains were, and how far the heroes had come when they defeated them in their season finales.
The best example, to me, is Flash/Zoom's first encounter. It was brutal. I'll admit it. But as savage as Barry's defeat was, it really showed, for the rest of the season, how Zoom was basically the "boogeyman". Barry really hesitated to get back in the saddle, so to speak, and it was a season long struggle of figuring out the best way to handle the threat.
Of course, in the end, we want our heroine to win. But those wins, in my opinion, just aren't as awesome as those of her male counterparts, until the villains are shown to be just as threatening to her as Merlin or Ra's was to Oliver, and Zoom or Reverse Flash was to Barry.
There is also the issue of Kara's enemies, who are supposedly super powered, constantly running away when Alex or the DEO show up with standard issue firearms that shouldn't be able to harm them. It really downplays how much of a threat they should really be, or why they needed Kara in the first place.
I'd like to hear your thoughts. Would you like to see a scenario where Supergirl is defeated, at first, emphasizing Reign's threat, only for our Girl of Steel to win a rematch in the season finale?
Looks like we think alike. Everyone on this site is probably getting annoyed with me for ranting about a villain who is actually a challenge. But yeah, unashamed to say, for the sake of the show, Kara needs to be smashed good in S3 xD
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 1
@Fedguy
Apparently you and I are the only ones, lol. NO comments on this one.
Apparently you and I are the only ones, lol. NO comments on this one.
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 2
Spot on Kdogg! I hope the Supergirl writers see the flaws of the first two seasons.
Part of the Flash's success in that department was the writers highlighted Flash's confidence early on and then Zoom showed up and proved he ain't easy to be messed around with.
Arrow showed the same thing with The Dark Archer, Deathstroke, and R'as (Damien was pfffft).
Part of the Flash's success in that department was the writers highlighted Flash's confidence early on and then Zoom showed up and proved he ain't easy to be messed around with.
Arrow showed the same thing with The Dark Archer, Deathstroke, and R'as (Damien was pfffft).
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 3
I think the fights with the Metallos in 2.01 and 2.02 qualify as good threatening match ups. The first fight with Vartox in 1.01 got pretty messy for Kara, although I think she beat him too easily in the end. And lets not forget the final battle with Red Tornado.
Imra: "What about Tommy and Gina? 'You live for the fight when it's all that you've got!'"
Mon El: "Bon Jovi."
Imra: "Or was that all a lie?"
Mon El: "No. He speaks the truth."
Mon El: "Bon Jovi."
Imra: "Or was that all a lie?"
Mon El: "No. He speaks the truth."
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 5
I think the fights with the Metallos in 2.01 and 2.02 qualify as good threatening match ups. The first fight with Vartox in 1.01 got pretty messy for Kara, although I think she beat him too easily in the end. And lets not forget the final battle with Red Tornado.
Eh...to an extent, I agree. Vartox was good. Great pilot. Metallo...the first encounter, she went down after one blast, when Superman took 2, one of them being an extended length exposure, and he brushed it off. And she's back on her feet by the time they get back to the DEO.
The second battles were alright. But don't get me started on how Alex's exosuit in that fight. An exosuit with no real armor shouldn't really have protected Alex from Metallo's super strength blows. Furthermore, the suit doesn't have any armoring or protection on her fists. So when she hits him she should have broken her hand. It's small things like this that seem to ruin the suspension of disbelief for me. If Alex was using , swords, again, or some other weapon, in conjunction with the suit, that would have been far more believable. The other parts of those fights were dope. But Alexe's portion was completely unbelievable.
The fight with Red Tornado was great, and definitely a highlight of season 1. But it was yet another fight that, in the end, came down to heat vision. Granted, it was used in a much more fantastic fashion in that episode.
But I think Fedguy would agree...compared to the first fight of Arrow vs Dark Archer, or Flash vs Zoom...there is no comparison. They thoroughly dismantled and humiliated the heroes. And it wasn't resolved by the end of one episode. Which made the uphill battle in the back half of those seasons all the better.
The bigger and badder the threat and the obstacles they represent, the better it is when the hero or heroine finally prevails.
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 6
Yep and it isn't even just that the hero needs to be smashed from time to time. It's that the main villain needs to reflect their main villain status.
The very fact that Metallo, a side villain, provided the most challenging battles shows a major wrong with the season.
The very fact that Metallo, a side villain, provided the most challenging battles shows a major wrong with the season.
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 7
I think that part of the issue with S1's fights and villains is that the first few episodes were bogged down with a lot of "I'm not going to bother fighting you! You're female!" preachy baggage. Once they got past that, and once they had the Lexi Alexander episode (Master Jailer) where she upped Supergirl's fight game, it got a lot better. I think that part of it, and it's something Zack Snyder used in MoS as well, is that there's no real reason for Supergirl to even know how to fight when first starting out! She couldn't have gotten into standard schoolyard fights because she'd kill the poor kid. So they kept her to a simple boxing style until that episode I mentioned.
But I still think that that Superman-Supergirl fight in S2 was one of the greatest super-fights I've ever seen on TV (I'm a sucker for all-out brawls).
But I still think that that Superman-Supergirl fight in S2 was one of the greatest super-fights I've ever seen on TV (I'm a sucker for all-out brawls).
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 8
For most of Flash S3 I was wondering, how is Barry ever going to beat Savitar?
For Supergirl S2 I was wondering, how is Rhea ever going to beat Kara?
For Supergirl S2 I was wondering, how is Rhea ever going to beat Kara?
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 9
For most of Flash S3 I was wondering, how is Barry ever going to beat Savitar?
For Supergirl S2 I was wondering, how is Rhea ever going to beat Kara?
I agree on both points. Sadly, I felt that Flash S3 fumbled it in the end. Instead of giving Barry an awesome heroic moment they ended with cheap tricks and a totally underwhelming final battle, at least for me anyway.
Imra: "What about Tommy and Gina? 'You live for the fight when it's all that you've got!'"
Mon El: "Bon Jovi."
Imra: "Or was that all a lie?"
Mon El: "No. He speaks the truth."
Mon El: "Bon Jovi."
Imra: "Or was that all a lie?"
Mon El: "No. He speaks the truth."
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 10
For most of Flash S3 I was wondering, how is Barry ever going to beat Savitar?
For Supergirl S2 I was wondering, how is Rhea ever going to beat Kara?
That's another bad thing about focusing the show around Mon El: It never provided a truly compelling foe for Kara. Rhea's most formidable asset, IMO, was her ruthlessness, but she was never a real problem for the Girl of Steel. She was only the "big bad" because TPTB decided they wanted to give Mon El as much screen time as they could. Lillian would be a much, much better villain; she actually poses a threat.
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 11
Knightsabre yeah I get you. It wasn't like with Zoom last time at all. That's the problem of keep having bad speedsters as villains.
littlestar64. I mostly agree. I think Mon-El is a great character but his background was not enough to drive the season. The mid-season split away from Cadmus felt random and felt like they changed main villains half way. That being said though, I never thought Lillian was a threat either.
littlestar64. I mostly agree. I think Mon-El is a great character but his background was not enough to drive the season. The mid-season split away from Cadmus felt random and felt like they changed main villains half way. That being said though, I never thought Lillian was a threat either.
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 12
Gentlemen expand your definition of a villain beating up the hero to include psychological damage. If you include psychological damage then even though she’s dead Rhea has succeeded in beating Kara up pretty good. Finding ways to do physical damage to Kryptonians, especially without always resorting to Kryptonite, has been a challenge for comic book writers for decades.
Comparing the power levels of our current TV heroes is like comparing apples to oranges. For peats sake Kara was literally laughing when the Earth-1 heroes were throwing everything they had at her during training. Picture a scenario where some villain has brainwashed our heroes into fighting each other.
Kara vs Oliver: Unless he manages to hit her in a vital organ with a Kryptonite arrow before she lands even one punch he’s a dead man.
Kara vs Barry: He’s fast enough that he could dodge and/or phase so most of her punches don’t land and he would probably be able to land a few punches but the effort would tire Barry out long before Kara even breaks a sweat. Then we have Kara’s freeze breath, isn’t cold a speedsters weakness so wouldn’t she be able to stop him in his tracks with that. Bottom line unless you give him something like the Kryptonite sword, Barry while he may put up a good fight is also a dead man.
All that being said you just may get your wish. Reign is one of the few beings that can physically beat up a Kryptonian. Apparently in the comics she beats Kara up and leaves her for dead. Given the producers love of recreating comic book panels I think something like one of these shots will be irresistible.
Comparing the power levels of our current TV heroes is like comparing apples to oranges. For peats sake Kara was literally laughing when the Earth-1 heroes were throwing everything they had at her during training. Picture a scenario where some villain has brainwashed our heroes into fighting each other.
Kara vs Oliver: Unless he manages to hit her in a vital organ with a Kryptonite arrow before she lands even one punch he’s a dead man.
Kara vs Barry: He’s fast enough that he could dodge and/or phase so most of her punches don’t land and he would probably be able to land a few punches but the effort would tire Barry out long before Kara even breaks a sweat. Then we have Kara’s freeze breath, isn’t cold a speedsters weakness so wouldn’t she be able to stop him in his tracks with that. Bottom line unless you give him something like the Kryptonite sword, Barry while he may put up a good fight is also a dead man.
All that being said you just may get your wish. Reign is one of the few beings that can physically beat up a Kryptonian. Apparently in the comics she beats Kara up and leaves her for dead. Given the producers love of recreating comic book panels I think something like one of these shots will be irresistible.
Hope, Help and Compassion for all
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 13
I have great hope the next season works out, Reign sounds fine.
That being said, I firmly hold that our issues with previous seasons are valid. Every other hero takes psychological and physical challenges. And if you want to compare psychological damage, again Kara does not measure up to her DCTV colleagues. Now luckily I'd rather Kara not become PTSD'd because I love her optimism, but if that was to happen it sure hasn't.
It's as if it'd make a good show around the notion, "she's so powerful bad guys have to resort to hurting her feelings."
Sure Kara is very different from a guy that shoots arrows or runs fast. Darkseid or Doomsday or the numerous things DC has thought of or can invent that beat up Kryptonians as a pastime are also very different from bad guys that shoot arrows or runs fast xD.
I don't expect Oliver to fight Barry's villains. Also, don't think the argument that Barry can destroy Oliver's villains any day prevents him from having challenges of his own. Why is he never truly the fastest man alive in any season? Because then, well, what is the point? Why is Arrow not nearly as interesting to watch anymore? Part because Oliver now beats any non-powered person 1v1.
I know some are compelled to defend and justify every fault in the show but this is one of them and it is there. Previously it was just me talking about it, and it looked like I was a nutjob, but clearly now many others think alike. A show can be unique, it does not need follow the template of Arrow etc, that is not what I suggest. But one thing hold true from the grandest fiction to a high school English assignment, the challenge faced by the protagonist needs to feel like it's worth it.
Oh and Brierose, I ranted a little but hope we still all friends here. Please don't take me for an agitator or some Arrowverse fanboy who wants to pick bones with Supergirl. Supergirl is the first DC show I watched. I saw all the rest afterwards.
That being said, I firmly hold that our issues with previous seasons are valid. Every other hero takes psychological and physical challenges. And if you want to compare psychological damage, again Kara does not measure up to her DCTV colleagues. Now luckily I'd rather Kara not become PTSD'd because I love her optimism, but if that was to happen it sure hasn't.
It's as if it'd make a good show around the notion, "she's so powerful bad guys have to resort to hurting her feelings."
Sure Kara is very different from a guy that shoots arrows or runs fast. Darkseid or Doomsday or the numerous things DC has thought of or can invent that beat up Kryptonians as a pastime are also very different from bad guys that shoot arrows or runs fast xD.
I don't expect Oliver to fight Barry's villains. Also, don't think the argument that Barry can destroy Oliver's villains any day prevents him from having challenges of his own. Why is he never truly the fastest man alive in any season? Because then, well, what is the point? Why is Arrow not nearly as interesting to watch anymore? Part because Oliver now beats any non-powered person 1v1.
I know some are compelled to defend and justify every fault in the show but this is one of them and it is there. Previously it was just me talking about it, and it looked like I was a nutjob, but clearly now many others think alike. A show can be unique, it does not need follow the template of Arrow etc, that is not what I suggest. But one thing hold true from the grandest fiction to a high school English assignment, the challenge faced by the protagonist needs to feel like it's worth it.
Oh and Brierose, I ranted a little but hope we still all friends here. Please don't take me for an agitator or some Arrowverse fanboy who wants to pick bones with Supergirl. Supergirl is the first DC show I watched. I saw all the rest afterwards.
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 14
Knightsabre yeah I get you. It wasn't like with Zoom last time at all. That's the problem of keep having bad speedsters as villains.
littlestar64. I mostly agree. I think Mon-El is a great character but his background was not enough to drive the season. The mid-season split away from Cadmus felt random and felt like they changed main villains half way. That being said though, I never thought Lillian was a threat either.
That's the problem with having Kryptonians as the villains in s1. Everyone else seems fairly tame in comparison. Since Reign is sort of Kryptonian herself, though, I hope she'll be more like Astra and Non than Rhea.
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 15
Oh and Brierose, I ranted a little but hope we still all friends here. Please don't take me for an agitator or some Arrowverse fanboy who wants to pick bones with Supergirl. Supergirl is the first DC show I watched. I saw all the rest afterwards.
We cool Fedguy I never thought you were putting Supergirl down. I just wanted to point out the inherent difficulty of creating a villain that can physically match a Kryptonian. I think Kara's had her share of psychological damage. The whole losing her whole world thing which manafests itself in abandonment issues and having lots of difficulty handling changes. Kara's basic personality is optimistic and that's helped her.
Hope, Help and Compassion for all
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 16
Everyone's view has validity. Like Fedguy, I'm glad to see that I'm not some lone nutjob, lol.
I love Supergirl. I defend it, and all the DC CW shows to the best of my ability, against the haters. But there are some valid points that I have just shrug and say "eh...despite that, I still love it". But I do think that Supergirl needs to up the ante, and Reign could be just that.
That's why I got a little discouraged when we saw Odette's character having a civilian identity...it just felt too much like how they handled Doomsday in Smallville, which I thought was really poorly done.
Maybe they're gonna go a Jeckyll and Hyde route with her, to where Reign's a straight up alternate personality who is full on evil. That would be pretty cool.
I digress. And Please don't feel like I'm picking on Supergirl. It has problems in it's villain department, and some other issues. But Arrow and Flash have had their ups and downs as well. I was merely using their BEST villains as an example of what I wish we could get in Supergirl.
And they've had some really great villains. I just don't think they've used them all very well as they could have. Metallo works best when he's not someone else's pawn. Parasite works best when he's out to use his power selfishly, not as some tree hugger who suddenly goes homicidal.
Livewire was treated really well in her first and 3rd appearances. As much as I love the crossover with Flash from season 1, you can tell a lot of elements were just thrown together, because they got the approval to do it so late in their production cycle. For this reason, Livewire just seemed like a bit player in that episode.
All that being said, I still stick with my original point. We haven't gotten a big season long bad guy for Supergirl that's been as good as Zoom, Merlin, or Deathstroke. For that reason, I'm hoping Reign can turn it around.
I love Supergirl. I defend it, and all the DC CW shows to the best of my ability, against the haters. But there are some valid points that I have just shrug and say "eh...despite that, I still love it". But I do think that Supergirl needs to up the ante, and Reign could be just that.
That's why I got a little discouraged when we saw Odette's character having a civilian identity...it just felt too much like how they handled Doomsday in Smallville, which I thought was really poorly done.
Maybe they're gonna go a Jeckyll and Hyde route with her, to where Reign's a straight up alternate personality who is full on evil. That would be pretty cool.
I digress. And Please don't feel like I'm picking on Supergirl. It has problems in it's villain department, and some other issues. But Arrow and Flash have had their ups and downs as well. I was merely using their BEST villains as an example of what I wish we could get in Supergirl.
And they've had some really great villains. I just don't think they've used them all very well as they could have. Metallo works best when he's not someone else's pawn. Parasite works best when he's out to use his power selfishly, not as some tree hugger who suddenly goes homicidal.
Livewire was treated really well in her first and 3rd appearances. As much as I love the crossover with Flash from season 1, you can tell a lot of elements were just thrown together, because they got the approval to do it so late in their production cycle. For this reason, Livewire just seemed like a bit player in that episode.
All that being said, I still stick with my original point. We haven't gotten a big season long bad guy for Supergirl that's been as good as Zoom, Merlin, or Deathstroke. For that reason, I'm hoping Reign can turn it around.
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 17
Everyone's view has validity. Like Fedguy, I'm glad to see that I'm not some lone nutjob, lol.
I love Supergirl. I defend it, and all the DC CW shows to the best of my ability, against the haters. But there are some valid points that I have just shrug and say "eh...despite that, I still love it". But I do think that Supergirl needs to up the ante, and Reign could be just that.
That's why I got a little discouraged when we saw Odette's character having a civilian identity...it just felt too much like how they handled Doomsday in Smallville, which I thought was really poorly done.
Maybe they're gonna go a Jeckyll and Hyde route with her, to where Reign's a straight up alternate personality who is full on evil. That would be pretty cool.
I digress. And Please don't feel like I'm picking on Supergirl. It has problems in it's villain department, and some other issues. But Arrow and Flash have had their ups and downs as well. I was merely using their BEST villains as an example of what I wish we could get in Supergirl.
And they've had some really great villains. I just don't think they've used them all very well as they could have. Metallo works best when he's not someone else's pawn. Parasite works best when he's out to use his power selfishly, not as some tree hugger who suddenly goes homicidal.
Livewire was treated really well in her first and 3rd appearances. As much as I love the crossover with Flash from season 1, you can tell a lot of elements were just thrown together, because they got the approval to do it so late in their production cycle. For this reason, Livewire just seemed like a bit player in that episode.
All that being said, I still stick with my original point. We haven't gotten a big season long bad guy for Supergirl that's been as good as Zoom, Merlin, or Deathstroke. For that reason, I'm hoping Reign can turn it around.
I'm like 80% sure that the Jekyll and Hyde thing has been confirmed. Could have sworn I saw it on here, actually.
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 18
All that being said, I still stick with my original point. We haven't gotten a big season long bad guy for Supergirl that's been as good as Zoom, Merlin, or Deathstroke. For that reason, I'm hoping Reign can turn it around.
With Odette signed as a regular Reign's going to be around all season. I'm sure no season two villain actor was a regular, not sure about season one. Remember Astra died in S1E13 which was the last of the original 13 episodes CBS ordered. Laura had a previous commitment to a Broadway show after that so Astra had to die.
I do look forward to a formidable villain for Kara. Zoom was cool on Flash. I didn't like Savatar because I figured he was Barry after the second time he said "I am the future Flash". After that I was like Barry why haven't you figured that out and stopped him. I can't see that type of thing being an issue with Reign.
Hope, Help and Compassion for all
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 19
Gentlemen expand your definition of a villain beating up the hero to include psychological damage. If you include psychological damage then even though she’s dead Rhea has succeeded in beating Kara up pretty good. Finding ways to do physical damage to Kryptonians, especially without always resorting to Kryptonite, has been a challenge for comic book writers for decades.
To add to Brierrose's point here though, a great villain doesn't necessarily need to be a direct physical threat to the hero.
Consider the villain from 2.19 - Alex. He's just an average guy, but he challenges Kara in a way greater than many of the physical threats did last season.
Consider season 1 Flash's villain (who I personally consider the best of Flash's villains so far). He and Barry don't actually tangle physically until the very end, but throughout the season he's the devious unseen villain hiding in plain sight, manipulating Barry to his own ends.
Or, consider someone like The Joker. He can't stand up to Batman physically, but his other 'qualities' level the playing field.
Imra: "What about Tommy and Gina? 'You live for the fight when it's all that you've got!'"
Mon El: "Bon Jovi."
Imra: "Or was that all a lie?"
Mon El: "No. He speaks the truth."
Mon El: "Bon Jovi."
Imra: "Or was that all a lie?"
Mon El: "No. He speaks the truth."
- more than a month ago
- Supergirl Season 3
- # 20
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