Main Villains

She got that you know what beat out of her in the very first episode . I have to say my students watched it and they each wrote a short critique about it and I sent about 100 or so quotes from those two the show runners . One of the things that I found interesting is that the girls had no problem seeing that it didn't even phase them but I had several young men in my class who found that to be very hard to watch they talked about thinking of their sister and their girlfriend and their mom and they were very uncomfortable watching that. So I'm not sure that it would be a problem for women or girls before the guys yeah that may be a little bit uncomfortable but I see absolutely no problem with it.

Under real gender equality, anyone can beat anyone up. If a gender cannot be depicted to be harmed the implication is that they are inferior and require concessions, so in order to be truly not sexist, one should not have a problem with women being hurt on TV as long is the reason for violence is not that they are women.

@Kelly-I’d be interested in how those young men would feel watching Oliver or Barry take down a female big bad.

@Fedguy in a perfect world you’re right it shouldn’t matter but we don’t live in a perfect world. Violence against women is real.

It's real and it's bad but villains don't do good things they do bad things.

Plus she's Supergirl. It cannot be claimed on one hand she is many times more powerful than a normal man but while they can be hurt she can't.

I think the more there is a taboo on women being hurt in fiction, the more it reinforces the view that women are weaker. And in turn that drives more violence against women in reality, because the real misogynists do it because they believe women are weak.

If the show intends to empower women and then uphold the the view that women are fragile and should be exempt from violence the show kills its own message.

Plus the essence of positive fiction is that it portrays how the world should be not how the world is. They put a progressive president in the universe instead of Trump didn't they?

The thing about empowerment is that it can't work in one direction only. Supergirl is empowered because she can fight and dish out damage, if you can deal damage, you naturally will take damage a fight is two directional.

It's like saying we want more female soldiers in the military, they can shoot, but cannot get shot at. It can't work like that. If you want more female soldiers you get more female causalities and that just needs to be accepted. More power and more involvement also means more risk like anyone else.

Btw I think a female main villain on The Flash or Arrow would be a great idea.

Btw I think a female main villain on The Flash or Arrow would be a great idea.

Black Siren (evil laurel from Earth 2) is currently working as a recurring villain this season of Arrow

@Fedguy I personally agree with all your points. It’s not showing equality if Supergirl can beat men up but they can’t do the same to her. I say the same for Oliver and Barry, if a woman punches them they should be allowed to hit back the same as if a man hit them. You are also correct that fiction should show a word better than the real world.

Is what you said here what you would say to the young men, who are not that much younger than you, in Kelly’s class who were uncomfortable watching Supergirl getting beat up in the pilot? I have a feeling that those young men would agree with you in principle but what made them uncomfortable was associating Supergirl with the women in their lives.

I’d love to see Oliver or Barry go up against a female big bad. I can see Barry especially, who Joe probably taught to never hit a girl, being reluctant to go all out.

Is what you said here what you would say to the young men, who are not that much younger than you, in Kelly’s class who were uncomfortable watching Supergirl getting beat up in the pilot? I have a feeling that those young men would agree with you in principle but what made them uncomfortable was associating Supergirl with the women in their lives.

The guys in the class do raise an interesting point. I guess I'm very idealistic and truth be told I've not much clue whether my idealism holds with reality. I haven't thought about the women in my life when thinking about this topic, but it doesn't change my position.

Only woman in my immediate family is my mother. She's 52 so I don't think I can talk about physical strength here, but by virtue and capability she is the best person I know in this world.

Outside my family, growing up, I knew a few girls that can probably end a fight with me in a heartbeat. I've known girls who are great people and I've known ones who are utterly despicable. Same with guys. So personally I think I've always seen everyone as just people and that shaped my view in the matter.

I guess I'll tell those guys the same thing.

I know this is a bit off topic but as a reminder, we’ve graded just about all the characters on the show. You can look up Supergirl’s stats and see what she’d need to go against. Most only challenge an aspect of her, not all of her abilities: https://supergirl.tv/characters/villians

In principle, I agree with Fedguy. In true equality, the gender of the hero and of the villain wouldn't matter. It's good versus bad.

But that's not the world we live in.

I remember that when they were advertising X-Men: Apocalypse, Rose McGowan threw a fit over a billboard of Apocalypse choking Mystique, claiming it promoted domestic violence.

From an advertising angle, it made sense. Apocalypse was the big bad, and Jennifer Lawrence was, by far, the biggest name in that movie, thanks to the acclaim she'd gained since beginning the Hunger Game films. And using that scene illustrated the threat that the villain posed made sense. But someone will always find a way to turn it offensive.

Others claimed that the Burnside-Batgirl redesign, for the comic books, was an improvement because it didn't sexualize Batgirl. But in reality, Batgirl's previous outfit (the New 52 outfit) covered just as much of her body as Batman's, featured the same armored plating design that was featured in the New 52, and was just as tight on her form as it was on his. No more, no less. Makes no sense, in terms of equality, to argue that her suit was sexualized any more than his.

In the end, I stopped reading after that because I didn't like the redesign or the direction they were taking for the character (making her act like a 15 year old). But the very thought that a Batgirl wearing a leather jacket and boots with hanging laces was more practical than an armored batsuit is completely beyond me.

True equality would mean that Bane would be as aggressive towards Batgirl as he would be Batman, in a comic. Or that Supergirl could be put in the same situation as Superman was when he faced Doomsday.

But that's not the world we live in. In comics, TV, and any other media, for that matter, we rarely see our superheroines face the same adversity as their male counterparts. I'm not saying they never face those odds, but it's very rare, because the public is uncomfortable seeing women put in that situation.

I'm not saying what's right, and what is wrong. I'm just saying what i think "true equality" would be. I like to see heroes, regardless of gender, face that adversity, and i want it to see it more with our female heroes, because it's so rare. That doesn't mean I would ever condone domestic violence. I grew up in a house with domestic violence, and sometimes it still gets to me. The reason I want to see our female heroes face these types of odds, and have these devastating defeats, once in a while, is because it makes it that much more powerful when they come back, and defeat that enemy later on. And I personally think that, as long as it's understood that it's in a realm of fantasy, that shouldn't be an issue.

But again, that's not the world we live in. And I get it. Maybe our society will never get there. I can't say.

But, having a female villain like Reign, as I stated in the other thread, negates some of those concerns. And that's why I'm hoping we can get a real, genuine throwdown, featuring a mid-season defeat of the Girl of Steel, at the hands of Reign. It'll make the back half of the season that much more meaningful.


EDIT: Realized I used the phrase "That's not the world we live in" several times. Meh, it's super late. I wasn't writing at my best, lol.

I think there are two different but related forces that are influencing this issue.

For the most part, society has conditioned us to view women as the weaker sex (even though we all know they're not ). Generation after generation has been taught that women need to be coddled and protected, which is historically, why there has been a struggle to get women into various occupations, sports, television/movie roles, etc. The fact that a show like SG and a movie like Wonder Women is considered a novelty is a reflection of that belief. Until that perception is changed on a wider level, there are going to be those who are uncomfortable seeing women in physical danger or maimed on television. In this instance, my reaction is, get over it; women can bear children, survive disasters and finish Ironman triathalons, they'll be fine.

The domestic violence outlook is the second force, which is a very real concern. Television shows that constantly place women as victims of violence from the hand of a man should be scrutinized. But, when a woman has been placed into a role of law enforcement, military or super hero, the expectation that they won't be physically hurt by a man is unrealistic and demeaning. For women who are trying to change the belief that women have to be coddled, the argument that television shows shouldn't depict women in violent situations is counterproductive. I have confidence that most viewers, both men and women, can distinguish the difference between scenes that encourage domestic violence and those with the purpose of showing the courage of women.

@kdogg87-Excellent points, the real world always gets in the way. I remember the controversy about that X-men poster. I don’t see that movie, I know apocalypse was the villain and mistique was a hero. Choking is a legitimate villain move, villains don’t care about fighting fair they want to kill the hero. During the movie I assume the two characters fought, did choking actually happen during one of thier fights? If so then the poster legitimately depicted what happened during the movie. If no then it was in poor taste and should have shown an actual fight move used.

I think the biggest factor in the violence shown is the relationship between the characters. Supergirl and Vartox had no relationship other than he was a villain who wanted her dead so IMO that wasn’t a a problem.

I do think that a legitimate reluctance to show violence against women is a factor in why the vast majority of especially live action superhero heroes and villains are male.

I don’t have a good answer to this because I definitely see both sides. To someone who experienced violence any depiction can be a trigger. On the other hand heros and villains do fight and it is empowering to show a woman holding her own or winning a fight against a man.

@Kelly-I’d be interested in how those young men would feel watching Oliver or Barry take down a female big bad.

@Fedguy in a perfect world you’re right it shouldn’t matter but we don’t live in a perfect world. Violence against women is real.

Oh, I can tell you right now....it would be very different. They would not associate the female villain with anyone in their family or friendship circle. I know my kids well enough to be able to tell you that.....

@Kelly-I’d be interested in how those young men would feel watching Oliver or Barry take down a female big bad.

@Fedguy in a perfect world you’re right it shouldn’t matter but we don’t live in a perfect world. Violence against women is real.

Oh, I can tell you right now....it would be very different. They would not associate the female villain with anyone in their family or friendship circle. I know my kids well enough to be able to tell you that.....

Very true, except in the case of Black siren who is literally the exact double of Laurel Lance (the earth 2 version of Laurel) There's multiple people in Oliver's team including Quentin Lance (the dad of regular laurel) who have near mental trauma just fighting her. Plus she keeps making comments to the new Black Canary (Dinah Drake) about her suit and how she isn't the 'real' black canary.

Anyway sorry for going off topic just thought Black Siren is a special case in this instance. (In Arrow she's shown killing both men and women and being physically stronger) And as for family/friendship, like I said before Quentin Lance had mental trauma last season because when he looks at her he can't bring himself to fight his 'daughter'

Bringing this here as Brierrose suggested..
Just to clarify; I didn't mean to say I don't like female villains. My point was just that they don't need more of those female villains just to add to the sex ratio (it is pretty female favouring anyways) and a love triangle is such a tired trope. Really, I have seen it in almost every show I have watched; but never in real life. and that is my main objection with respect to making Saturn Girl a villain. I have no issue with adding another female villain, and I'd have the same issue with love triangle if it was two men and a woman.

I don't think they have female villains because male villains beating up SG would be problematic. We do have enough of those (there was Parasite, that first villain Kara ever faced, reactron and so on).

And, they also have Edge. I wish he would be more SG-antagonist than Lena, but whatever.

I just think they probably find women going after women more interesting. Or, may be it is a sex ratio thing (as I mentioned); they just want to have an equal distribution of women everywhere including villainy. Since other shows have more men, SG has more women.

Coming to the actual topic and discussion.
Again: Domestic violence is condoned when the show's overall theme condones the violence or glorifies it; or fetishises it. I don't think a Superhero fighting a male villain and getting beat up by that villain would ever do that; any more than the reverse. In fact, wouldn't getting up and winning be empowering in such a case?

Harmful streotypes are those that aren't called out as harmful in a show (or story); those that get support from the narrative arc. And those that are used without any nuance or are used just for the sake of adding drama or shock (similar to fetishisation; for example, I think A Game of Thrones fetishises violence and rape to a certain extent). I think love triangles (with the third person as the villain) falls under the last, which is why I dislike them. And when it is the women, it is always a harmful stereotype.

Actually Supergirl had a male antagonist once. Maxwell Lord. Remember him? But in the end he helped saving the world.

Actually Supergirl had a male antagonist once. Maxwell Lord. Remember him? But in the end he helped saving the world.

Max wasn’t a physical threat to Kara, he would’ve broken his hand if he tried to punch her.

The question is if Reign has been a male season long villain and given Supergirl the same beat-down would you have been uncomfortable seeing a man beating up a woman like we saw in S3E9

Actually Supergirl had a male antagonist once. Maxwell Lord. Remember him? But in the end he helped saving the world.

Season 1 also had Non. He was usually overshadowed by either Astra, or Indigo but, Non and Kara did square off in the season finale.
Season 2 had *the real* Hank Henshaw/Cyborg Superman, and to a lesser extent Metalo.

Actually Supergirl had a male antagonist once. Maxwell Lord. Remember him? But in the end he helped saving the world.

Season 1 also had Non. He was usually overshadowed by either Astra, or Indigo but, Non and Kara did square off in the season finale.
Season 2 had *the real* Hank Henshaw/Cyborg Superman, and to a lesser extent Metalo.

They also squared off in "Blood Bonds"....and then in "For The Girl Who Has Everything" of course she was out for blood that time and he really only got one punch in.