Everything Waco Thread

After tonight's episode, I have to still stand by my initial thoughts... those kids were in harm's way at Mt. Carmel.

From our initial discussion, I came to understand Rachel's marriage. Didn't agree with it, but... legal. But the sister? Married also to Koresh and sex at 12?? Nope... Definitely not cool, nor legal. And we saw how they were all ok with covering it up by asking Tibs to "marry" the sister? That to me proves that at ANY point, David, and possibly even Rachel, could say he/she had a "revelation" and ANY child was in danger of becoming the next wife? For ME? That shows child services had cause to remove the children from the home. What if Koresh had a vision that he must sacrifice a "lamb" like Abraham was called to do... and then said it was revealed which child should be the sacrificial lamb? From what I've seen, thus far... Pretty sure Koresh would get anything from his followers that he "preached" should be given.

How was Melissa's performance in this episode?.

I found myself disliking the character that she played, so she did a damn good job. LOL

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Exactly, all she had to go on was her discussions with Tibodeaux as well as pictures. Damn, she has her look down to a science. But, according to Tibodeaux she really did capture the essence of who and what Rachel was....it is amazing how they have used almost to the seating positions of the congregation...actual footage of him preaching. It has been very well done IMO....

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Exactly, all she had to go on was her discussions with Tibodeaux as well as pictures. Damn, she has her look down to a science. But, according to Tibodeaux she really did capture the essence of who and what Rachel was....it is amazing how they have used almost to the seating positions of the congregation...actual footage of him preaching. It has been very well done IMO….

Ive noticed a lot of great attention to detail in the show right down to the near exact newspaper headline and picture,even how windy it was at the time

Well, they chose a good area of New Mexico to use....it's windy there pretty much all the time, and its the same in Central Texas...well most all of Texas really.... LOL

I thought some might find this interesting....

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/959947181531725829

State by state legal marriage ages...

An interview with Melissa and Andrea Riseborough, who plays Judy, one of David's wives.

Waco Interview Magazine

Watching episode 3, as we speak. Immediate questions:

1) Why on this green earth is ATF going in like gangbusters?? They knew women and children were in there. %?!%}?! So they just drive right up and start shooting? No attempts to talk to anyone? They supposedly were there to serve a warrant.

But, I have to wonder, if Tibs wrote this, was inside, and thus wouldn't have known... I wonder why the show depicts the first shots fired came from the officers shooting two dogs and all hell then breaks loose?

2) I'd like to know who gave them the so-called intel of where the gun room was. Initially they were told it was in the one area, but that was only the women's quarters. Turns out they were stashed in the "freezer." During the initial seige, the officers were told, again, to secure the gun area. Yet, even though the one ATF agent (forgot name) had already TOLD them previously that he checked, and the guns were not where they were initially told...they STILL breached the compound through the women's quarters to secure "the gun room."

3) I find it completely BAFFLING that they took ZERO communications with them? Like zilch? Nada? That's just down right idiotic. And its not like the ATF/FBI hadn't done and trained endlessly for operations before this.

That was a very intense episode. For some reason, the fire fight at the beginning reminded me of the opening scene of Private Ryan with a slightly lower level of gore.

The whole thing was completely baffling to me. So many mistakes were made by the ATF and then you add in all the testosterone and the delusional Koresh and it was a complete nightmare for those involved. I started watching this for Melissa but, after seeing three episodes, I would say it's one that is worth watching even if she wasn't in the show.

Evrafter - I think that a lot of what Jacob (the ATF undercover agent) told the ATF either was ignored or went over their heads because they were in a hurry to put a "win" in their belt in order to restore both the government and public opinion of their ability and necessity. The man on the radio said it best in that law enforcement's job is to de-escalate situations while the military tactic is to escalate. In this case, the ATF acted very militaristic because of needing that win. And then, to cover it up after the fact, seems to be a government go-to.

Evrafter - I think that a lot of what Jacob (the ATF undercover agent) told the ATF either was ignored or went over their heads because they were in a hurry to put a "win" in their belt in order to restore both the government and public opinion of their ability and necessity. The man on the radio said it best in that law enforcement's job is to de-escalate situations while the military tactic is to escalate. In this case, the ATF acted very militaristic because of needing that win. And then, to cover it up after the fact, seems to be a government go-to.

I just had a problem with radio dude labeling it military tactics. There were zero said tactics used.Thing is, ATF isn't the military it falls under law enforcement, and thus, not properly trained in that manner. They were supposedly there to serve a warrant. Instead, they full on just bum rushed the compound, it appeared, with zero tactical pre-planning. The military would have first secured the perimeter (which would have thus kept that one B. Davidian from being shot), then cut communications going out. Sounds more like, to me, this rests souly on the heads of those idiotic leaders. I mean, when a cameraman is able to yell "cease fire," and the ATF officers actually stopped? Wow. That lead ATF agent seemed like a total bumbling idiot.

I just had a problem with radio dude labeling it military tactics. There were zero said tactics used.Thing is, ATF isn't the military it falls under law enforcement, and thus, not properly trained in that manner. They were supposedly there to serve a warrant. Instead, they full on just bum rushed the compound, it appeared, with zero tactical pre-planning. The military would have first secured the perimeter (which would have thus kept that one B. Davidian from being shot), then cut communications going out. Sounds more like, to me, this rests souly on the heads of those idiotic leaders. I mean, when a cameraman is able to yell "cease fire," and the ATF officers actually stopped? Wow. That lead ATF agent seemed like a total bumbling idiot.

I think what he was saying, which is also what I was also implying, was that the ATF is a law enforcement organization but was using military tactics in the situation and that they shouldn't have done that. He was condemning their actions. Their job was to keep the situation calm and under control and instead, they escalated it (kind of like Alex at Julia's house ). Regarding that cameraman -that was some crazy stuff going on during that entire scene. I think my jaw hit the floor as soon as the shooting started and I didn't pick it up until some time after the guy was shot outside the house.

"ATF is a law enforcement organization but was using military tactics in the situation and that they shouldn't have done that."

But, what I was saying is they WEREN'T using military tactics. Military wouldn't have just rushed in with obviously zero planning. That was just going in, guns blazing. A military, as well as, MOST police raids have much better planning. These guys just sucked, which was obvious in that a cameraman with zero training was able to get the officers to stop. Military and police have much much more discipline than what was shown. So instead of "military tactics" I would label it "clueless, carless, DESPERITE, and armed recklessness."

Something tells me, once the military DOES show up in tanks, those same clueless, reckless, desperate agents are gonna order the military around. So, once again, it won't be military tactics.... only their equipment.

I had no problem with what the radio DJ said that was one thing that my friends and I actually talked about at the time that it happened . The helicopters were supposed to just be there as cover as the ground moved in that's military action that's military planning and then when it escalated they fired from the helicopters as well that's not police planning that's military planning it was way over-the-top . That is nothing to do with the right or wrong going on inside that compound that's totally separate from any of that . And for the ATF who asked for the news camera to be their knew they screwed up that's why they took the camera in the field and only released a portion of it they knew they screwed up. That was just a mess .

Been doing some more reading. Yep....Kelly and Sully are correct. Looks like they did try to employ military tactics. Apparently Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark is rumored to have had involvement--though he still downplays his roll. I think where I was misunderstanding the situation came from the fact that it was "police officers" carrying out moves generally made by the military. In my readings, it appears officers were "trained" at Ft. Hood. However, how much training did they actually get? Obviously not enough because the execution of their moves turned out to be a hot mess.

So, my absolute apologies to Sully and Kelly. I happily stand corrected.

Been doing some more reading. Yep....Kelly and Sully are correct. Looks like they did try to employ military tactics. Apparently Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark is rumored to have had involvement--though he still downplays his roll. I think where I was misunderstanding the situation came from the fact that it was "police officers" carrying out moves generally made by the military. In my readings, it appears officers were "trained" at Ft. Hood. However, how much training did they actually get? Obviously not enough because the execution of their moves turned out to be a hot mess.

So, my absolute apologies to Sully and Kelly. I happily stand corrected.

It wasn't police carrying this out at that time, it was the ATF, another problem that I had with it was the fact that they DID NOT bring in the Sherrif's department, the Waco Police Department, US Marshalls, or Texas Rangers...they could have brought any or all of those, and this would not have happened. That is another reason why this is categorized as a military action by so many....you don't keep secrets from the local agencies when serving a warrant, you bring them with you. Now, from this point on we will get the FBI POV from the negotiator, what he wrote in his book. Thus far inside the compound we have been getting the POV from actual phone conversations, radio, as well ad Tibodeaux's (young drummer guy, married to Rachel's sister) from what he wrote in his book.

And the very fact that the ATF confiscated the film footage from the (news guy that THEY ASKED TO BE THERE) tells you they knew they royally screwed up.

AGAIN, none of this wipes out what David Koresh was doing....and IMO, the lawyer inside the compound was wrong and scared the women with children the most. IMO, had David given himself up, along with probably may 4 - 5 of the other men, They would have gone in, seen that all guns and ammunition were legal...they had absolutely no history of violence from this group. He (David) had a good relationship with the local law enforcement. Had they gone at it that way, allowing the Sheriff to take David in......this would have never happened. They could have continued their lives....I think had the children been abused in any way, Thibodeaux would have brought that out in his book....he had nothing to gain from not telling the truth....he saw David for what he was....and it wasn't until he saw so many lies coming out as to what it was like on the inside that he decided to write his book.

And we are now going to get a clearer picture on law enforcement side from the negotiator's own account of what happened through these last 3 episodes.

"It wasn't police carrying this out at that time, it was the ATF..."

I meant it as the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms) being a law enforcement agency, not under military's jurisdiction. I'm assuming ATF first took "lead" due to the firearms stash. Then what we began to see in last episode was how operations were taken over by two separate teams of FBI--the negotiator vs. hostage rescue. SURE hope they have since cleaned up how they operate between one another--learn from their mistakes, right? Even with lessons learned from 9/11, still sounds like agencies aren't talking as much as they should. Example: the gunman who shot up the church in Sutherland Springs should never have been sold a gun due to the fact that he had been court marshaled. There's another recent shooter, I can't remember which one, that one of the gun shop owners felt uneasy about him--I believe the fact the shooter wanted body armor along with AR-15--so the shop owner notified FBI, but it went no where.

"It wasn't police carrying this out at that time, it was the ATF..."

I meant it as the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms) being a law enforcement agency, not under military's jurisdiction. I'm assuming ATF first took "lead" due to the firearms stash. Then what we began to see in last episode was how operations were taken over by two separate teams of FBI--the negotiator vs. hostage rescue. SURE hope they have sense cleaned up how they operate between one another--learn from their mistakes, right? Even with lessons learned from 9/11, still sounds like agencies aren't talking as much as they should. Example: the gunman who shot up the church in Sutherland Springs should never have been sold a gun due to the fact that he had been court marshaled. There's another recent shooter, I can't remember which one, that one of the gun shop owners felt uneasy about him--I believe the fact the shooter wanted body armor along with AR-15--so the shop owner notified FBI, but it went no where.

The Sutherland Springs incident was a total screw up of unbelievable magnitude by the military, and they have found 100's of other of their screw ups and are now taking care of those. Agencies not talking with each other has been a huge problem. Not having enough interpreters to interpret chatter from around the world has been a problem. The fact that the 2nd Amendment was written in a time where the gun you used took you minutes to load and shoot, rather than 3 minutes to kill 50 people...and people still scream about their 2nd :Amendment rights when lawmakers talk about banning a device that turns a semi-automatic into an automatic.....*shakes head* it is just amazing.

How was Melissa's performance in Episode 3?. Did Rachel get much story in the episode?.

She didn't appear as much as she did in Episode 2 but, she was good in what she was in, I thought. Most of Episode 3 was spent with the first encounter between the ATF and the Davidians which involved a lot of screen time on the fire fight, it's initial aftermath and the appearance of the FBI.

How was Melissa's performance in Episode 3?. Did Rachel get much story in the episode?.

She's great in anything she does. There was a scene where they were crying over their father, suddenly one of the B. Davidians tried sneaking IN to the compound during the firefight, and they shot him. Just Melissa's simple flinching as you could hear them shooting, was perfect. She's just so dang good at even the little nuances.

How was Melissa's performance in Episode 3?. Did Rachel get much story in the episode?.

She's great in anything she does. There was a scene where they were crying over their father, suddenly one of the B. Davidians tried sneaking IN to the compound during the firefight, and they shot him. Just Melissa's simple flinching as you could hear them shooting, was perfect. She's just so dang good at even the little nuances.

It is those little things that she does that puts her heads above most actors on TV today. These director's saw it, Kevin Smith almost had a fangasm over it....and I think that is probably what got her the part of Supergirl.

I think had the children been abused in any way, Thibodeaux would have brought that out in his book....he had nothing to gain from not telling the truth....he saw David for what he was....and it wasn't until he saw so many lies coming out as to what it was like on the inside that he decided to write his book.

I was reading some more on the event and I think that the child abuse explanation was what the FBI told Janet Reno was happening inside the compound in order to justify some of the tactics that they wanted to use. I don't believe that they had a lot of evidence of child abuse beforehand and the basis of their warrant was for the illegal guns and explosives that they thought were in the facility. That said, young girls being sexually abused by David definitely would qualify as child abuse and the other adults that allowed it to happen are complicit in that abuse, I think. Nevertheless, that wasn't the rationale for the raid and definitely doesn't justify the level of force that was used in the raid.

Anyone remember the Elian Gonzalez raid, too? With Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elian...wow. Not some good years there.

But, back to Waco. Looking forward to Melissa's acting in these next few heartbreaking episodes. Waco... The story I never realized needed to be told... until now.