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  3. Monday, 22 July 2019
I love their friendship. I hope they can get passed it and work better together.
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The series has done a good job building the reasons why Lena has trust issues, and Kara knows these reasons as well, which we have seen has been one of the reasons why she hasn't told Lena. So I don't see this as a simple troupe by any means.
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I hope so. I hope they can get past this, particularly since, Kara's 'betrayal' only exists in Lena's mind.
The problem isn't that Kara, Lena's best friend, hasn't told Lena her secret. What makes Lena feel betrayed is that she allowed Lex to convince her that Kara (along with everyone else in her friend group) was never her friend to begin with.
You would think she would know better than to trust Lex, but she can't seem to help being manipulated by him.

Lena has issues with trust. She doesn't give people second chances, which means that Kara would have had to pulled off the reveal perfectly. This is not an issue with anyone else in the know. Kara didn't really have to worry about how they would react when she told them (also for the most part she didn't actually have to tell them).
Lena allows herself to be conned by Lex because she thinks that because she knows he's trying to con her she can just outsmart him. Unfortunately Lex is doing the https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KansasCityShuffle so she is tricked anyway.

Hopefully someone will talk some sense into Lena. Perhaps Alex might point out that she shrugged off Alex working for the DEO pretty easily, or Alex might mention that she had to have her memories erased for a good bit of last season, which might have given Kara even more reason to be hesitant to tell Lena. Or maybe James could point out that Kara believed in Lena even when it appeared that there was solid proof against her.
Also they still have that Truthseeker thing, right? Maybe they can use that.

I love Lena but she's just wrong this time.
Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.
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I found myself agreeing with about 80-90% of what everyone else has written here on this subject so far. But there is something that has been only lightly touched on by some, and which maybe needs to be explored a bit more.

Kara never kept her secret from Lena to be hurtful about it, but - all of her perfectly understandable secrecy issues aside - the real root source of the problem here is Lena's intractable lack of trust of others.
She has had a very nasty habit of going on a rant from time to time about how much she hates it whenever someone close to her lies to her or keeps secrets from her, and how she can never trust anyone who does that to her; and I have lost track of how many times we've all seen her do that over the past two or three years.
It happen most recently on the plane when they were coming back from Kaznia. Kara saw a long-awaited opportunity to finally get her secret out in the open (something that she has wanted to do ever since the Kryptonite issue during the World-killers saga in Season Three) but, instead of listening, Lena started ranting about Eve's betrayal and, yet again, of how she can never trust anyone who has kept secrets from her, and Kara had to put off telling Lena, again. So rather than encouraging Kara to 'come clean' with Lena, this has been much more DIScouraging on Lena's part than anything else that she has done.
But Lena isn't completely at fault here; the problem most likely stems from her early years growing up in the Luthor family. Lillian perpetually lied and kept secrets from her, as Lex also did as he got older. And Lena later found out that even Lionel was keeping secrets from her too before he died. This may have started out as just a hang-up inherited from the Luthor family, but Lena has tenaciously clung to it as some kind of self-defence mechanism well into her adult life, to the point where it has escalated into an obsession with her, and I'm guessing that she probably doesn't even realize herself how negatively it affects her relationships with others close to her.
And let's be honest about something else - Lena has kept plenty secrets of her own from the others. Such as: Not telling them that she was working with Samantha to try to figure out how to stop Reign; lying about how the Kryptonite she used was Lex's, when it was actually hers; and then lying about how it was all gone, when she had figured out how to make more synthetic Kryptonite anytime she wanted to; keeping some of the Harun-El for herself (even though it was synthetic); and the experiments that she was doing with it to create super-humans. So, Lena feels that it's perfectly okay for her to lie and keep secrets from her friends, but it's not okay for them to keep secrets from her? There's a word for that, but I won't use it here.
And as for how she found out about Kara; Lex knew that he was dying and yet, in those last moments of his life, he didn't try to reconcile with Lena, but instead chose that revelation about Kara as his last act of vengeance on his sister. And he deliberately did it so as to cruelly inflict the greatest amount of psychological damage possible on his sister, using words that he knew would be the most hurtful possible to her ("they MOCKED you, they HUMILIATED you, etc.";). He knew exactly how vulnerable she was at that moment, and how to push her buttons and what it would do to her, and he did it maliciously; and Lena fell for it.

All that having been said, I have never enjoyed the occasional suggestions over the past three years that Lena should descend into the same darkness that the rest of her family is infamous for just because she's a Luthor. Despite some errors in judgement along the way (and which we are all guilty of) she has strived to be a good person, and has generally succeeded. So she should stay 'good', and leave the evil stuff to the seemingly endless variety of villains and baddies that Supergirl routinely faces off against. I expect that it will be a very rough ride for Kara and Lena for a while in Season Five, but I'm a "the glass is half-full" type of person, so I'm hoping that Lena will eventually be honest enough to face up to her own inherent lack of trust of others, and that their friendship will prevail in the end.
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I am certain that Kara and Lena will reconcile. Although it is likely (even inevitable) that the relationship will be affected in a substantive way, I think it may become even stronger. This will only happen after much drama, of course. But Melissa stated that season 5 would be a battle for Lena's soul, and I just cannot see TPTB allowing Supergirl to lose that fight. I expect that this struggle will be a major theme in the first half of the season leading up to the Crisis. That event will be an epiphany for Lena and reconciliation will follow.
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I think you brought up something important to mention, Brier. We've talked about how some of us think it's a bit wrong that Kara is taking so much heat for "lying." But, trying to see it from a realistic perspective, I think the problem I would have had, if I was Lena, wasn't thinking Kara lied to me; but rather, that I was the only one Kara felt couldn't be trusted with the secret. And feeling they all agreed that I couldn't be trusted.
Lena has major trust issues, I totally get why she would be upset. The trust issues are compounded by the Super/Luthor family history. Lena’s going to think the only reason Kara didn’t tell her is because she’s a Luthor which isn’t the whole truth. Likely the Luthor name was part of the reason in the beginning then even after Lena proved to be the white sheep of the family it became harder for Kara as time went on. And it’s true that knowledge of a hero’s secret identity does put the person in danger. As far as the others it’s not their secret to tell. The only thing any of the others could’ve done is encourage Kara to tell but I just don’t see any of them starting that conversation with Kara.

Both Kara and Lena have overacted at times. Remember when many of us were on team Lena, at least initially, with Kara’s reaction to the Kryptonite. They react differently when pushed, Kara sees red and gets mad while Lena uses her boxes.
Hope, Help and Compassion for all
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I think you brought up something important to mention, Brier. We've talked about how some of us think it's a bit wrong that Kara is taking so much heat for "lying." But, trying to see it from a realistic perspective, I think the problem I would have had, if I was Lena, wasn't thinking Kara lied to me; but rather, that I was the only one Kara felt couldn't be trusted with the secret. And feeling they all agreed that I couldn't be trusted.
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I do think Kara and Lena will be friends again. Kara/Lena isn’t like Clark/Lex if only because Lena isn’t a psychopath like her brother. No matter how much she wants to hurt Kara I just can’t see Lena intentionally hurting innocent people to do it. Unintentionally hurting hurting innocent people is a possibility not not intentionally. I think Lena’s gonna get in too deep with Leviathan and Kara has to pull her out.

A better question than will they be friends again is what will that friendship look like. Forgiving is not the same as forgetting. Trust has/will be broken on both sides.

I am looking forward to how it plays out.
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Ok....I'm just excited to see how it plays out...I think it is going to be some great fireworks.
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@Kelly,

The difference I see with Kara's secret and someone in a group not being told something is that Kara's secret was kept because it's a safety/security reason as part of her job. Yes, more people knew then should have, but really the only people outside of the DEO who she told were Winn and Nia. Winn she told before she understood the severity of who she was and about the possible repercussions of him knowing. James already knew and the DEO are all part of an organization that has the ability to maintain secrecy as one of their primary job requirements. Even they had to be mind-wiped after they became a liability tp keeping that secrecy. With Lena having close connections to a known enemy of both Supergirl and the DEO, it would be completely unprofessional for Kara to tell her who she was JUST because they're friends.

As for Nia and Lillian knowing, well I just chalk that up to inconsistent/poor writing. Lillian has known for three seasons yet nothing ever came of it, which is ridiculous as an oversight and Nia should never have been told either.

Yes, I can understand a bit on Lena's side that she's hurt because of her trust issues. But, Kara has her own history of issues yet is able to move past them in order to maintain relationships. And Lena, as someone who is supposed to have a high level of intelligence, is a corporate owner and a scientist with her own ethically questionable behavior, let's give her a little credit to be able to cool down, be willing to listen to Kara's side of it and think rationally about the whole thing.

Every relationship at every level has difficulties but if it's important to those in it they'll do what's necessary to fix those issues.

And if Lena's not willing to do that well, I guess she's not really someone I would want Kara to be friends with and I would say that Kara needs to cut her loses on that one.
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I believe it to be plain and simple, s VR program, we will see of course but I will wait to see. Ithe problem by most, not me...but most is the question, did she deserve the punch....IMO no one deserves to be punched unless in the process of self defense or defense of someone else, that is all I have to say on that. I don't know of the interview comment by Katie, so I don't know the context.

With that said, is it a case of REAL reality not VR, no Harun-el, etc.....THAT is a concern in the writing, again have to wait and see, a judgment call at this point is a waste of time.
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@Kelly wrote (and @SSAV replied);

"I guess in one of the interviews that Supergirl deserved to be punched..."

****

There will be a lot of that - both figuratively and literally - this season once the creative / critical dust has settled and the post mortem on S5 is done. Out come the Kryptonite-laced brass knuckles from all corners. It will get very messy.

Just sayin'!
"There Goes My Miracle" - Bruce Springsteen, from the CD/LP/Download Western Stars. (2019)
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Also, let me be clear, when I say...this or that pissed me off.....ex: Lena/Alex vs. Kara it is all within this fictional world of Supergirl. I don't take any of this personally or think the writer's are creatively wrong....they have every right to write it as they wish. As far as people being happy about Lena punching Kara, those people have taken this far beyond that of fictional characters. They see KATIE as their God, so whatever KATIE's character does is the exact right thing to do. On the other side you have those losing their marbles on Twitter because Katie said. I guess in one of the interviews that Supergirl deserved to be punched. I assume she is speaking as Lena, and take it as that.....others are losing their minds over it. I see them as fictional characters and we have one hell of a storyline to watch come Oct. 6th....lol


Oh! That was pretty clearly a joke on Katie's part. She is having fun with the character and it is nice to see the cast joke around.

I guess I don't like the double standard about keeping things as far as the characters as concerned. However, that doesn't mean I am losing my sleep over it either. Any more than yours, I guess (and I am not justifying; I know you didn't direct that at me).

But, you are right. This is their show and they can write it to realise their vision. Katie did say something interesting about her struggle being whether she can put this fact behind her and realise that the truth was kept from her for the best reasons. So, yeah. I do have hopes for how it all might turn out.
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Also, let me be clear, when I say...this or that pissed me off.....ex: Lena/Alex vs. Kara it is all within this fictional world of Supergirl. I don't take any of this personally or think the writer's are creatively wrong....they have every right to write it as they wish. As far as people being happy about Lena punching Kara, those people have taken this far beyond that of fictional characters. They see KATIE as their God, so whatever KATIE's character does is the exact right thing to do. On the other side you have those losing their marbles on Twitter because Katie said. I guess in one of the interviews that Supergirl deserved to be punched. I assume she is speaking as Lena, and take it as that.....others are losing their minds over it. I see them as fictional characters and we have one hell of a storyline to watch come Oct. 6th....lol
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I understand, If Kara wants to tell her....that is why I say she should have told her... why? Because you cannot in one line say you are a kind, beautiful, soul.......in another, you are not your step mother, brother etc....I'm your friend, I'm not going anywhere, and then not tell that person this secret...but everyone else and their friggin fog knows.....including people at the DEO, she really has no relationship with at all....and on top of that, she knows Lillian knows, she knows Lex knows....at that point, she really should have told her. NOW, with that said.....I TOTALLY understand why she didn't....she passed a point of no return after Season 2....meaning, her fear of losing Lena as a friend outweighed the need to tell her. But, if you are going to lift someone up multiple times as your friend, as family, etc...you need to trust them to be those things as well. Lena has running through her mind Thanksgiving with all these people, Christmas, game nights....being treated by Kara exactly like she treats her closest framily....they all know this secret, but she didn't tell you. WOW.....

NOW did Lena keep secrets from Kara? Heck yeah, should she have told her? Heck yeah......JAMES knew things he should have told Kara as well.....so MANY, MANY are definitely guilty of keeping secrets....they ALL should have come clean in my opinion. BUT, if they had.....we wouldn't have had this totally juicy storyline. So I'm very happy no one told her.....lol
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I think a lot of this scenario of the "Lena doesn't know" plot has been from Lena's perspective. Our perspective is our truth, whether it is correct or not, it is our truth. What Lena sees is that, everyone in her life.....EVERYONE....knew a very important bit of information, and she didn't. What she saw on the screen is something we don't get when we have been in situations where it seems like everyone in your crowd knew something but you didn't get the memo. That happens a lot to me in my family. What Lena saw through the footage that Lex had was how Kara physically made decisions to do things that kept Lena from finding out. So, not only was it a mental decision to not tell her, she followed through time and time again to keep the information from her. Then add on top of that, that EVERYONE ELSE knew.

Lena for the first time put her whole trust in someone. Kara..... people can debate till the cows come home as to why she couldn't figure it out on her own. I think she might well have suspected but put it out of her mind because why......why would her best friend, her adopted family, keep that information from her. I mean, seriously....you don't know, what you don't know....lol Kara has told her she isn't like her brother, her stepmother, that the Luthors are lucky to have her, not the other way around,
WHY would Kara keep that from her? Is what is going through her mind now....probably over and over again.

So, though yes, I am very tired of Kara apologizing to Lena for this or that, for me it is more the apologizing for being upset about the making of kryptonite, that apology pissed me off, and then for both Lena and Alex to come at Supergirl, that REALLY PISSED ME OFF. But for this plot scenario, Kara should have told much earlier than this, Kara allowed her fear of losing Lena as a friend keep her from doing the right thing. NOW we are seeing the consequences of that, again from Lena's perspective. WE KNOW KARA'S PERSPECTIVE, she loves Lena as a sister and only wants the best for her. We know Kara's heart very well......so though we may be mad at how Lena seems to be handling this bit of information.....lol, hey its her truth and holy cow....at how it is playing out. I think we are seeing not just pain from the not being told, but ALL OF THE EMOTIONS that she has pushed down throughout her entire life as people kept things from her, manipulated her behind her back, and she was just beginning to feel safe and BAM! I think it is far more HOW she found out, than WHAT she found out.....and I think we see that playing out in the trailer. I'm freaking excited to see how this plays out in the first few episodes. I may be pissed off after I see it, but I'm just going to look forward to it for now.


Oh! I agree from Lena's perspective. It makes sense and I am not surprised she is going full fledged anti-Kara on this.

I don't agree that Kara should have told Lena though. Not unless she wanted to. She had her own issues and it shouldn't be discounted.

What bothers me most is the fandom reaction and just how many people take pleasure in the fact that we have Lena punching Kara. Oh and how the EPs and even Melissa these days seem to think it is all Kara's fault. They seem to have forgotten their history with the Kryptonite, Harun El etc.

I couldn't totally blame Alex for taking Lena's side because Alex is clannish and she defends people in her circle and at the time, SG was outside her circle because of the memory wipe. I didn't particularly like it but I understood it. And, well, it made Kara do something independently of Alex's emotional support and come out on top; convincing both Lena and Alex to work with her. I am proud of Kara for that. I didn't want her to apologise though.

From a general standpoint, keeping her truth was not a betrayal. So, for everyone from the actors to the showrunners to the fandom (most of it) to continue harping on that as something that means 'Lena is right to have issues and Kara is a bad friend and had no right to keep part of herself from her.' That is what I dislike.

It is not a matter of right or wrong, so making it a matter of right or wrong is in my opinion wrong. :D

I'd have liked a more well-balanced approach. Where Kara takes Lena's reaction as a consequence of her decision but also decides that she herself wasn't wrong. But, want to help Lena anyways because she is Kara and she knows Lena has been hurt and she wants to erase that pain.

It's just the word betrayal and always blaming Kara for any issues that Lena has with her and never taking Kara's side is what bugs me.
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Excellent read, Kelly. And 100% this...

..for me it is more the apologizing for being upset about the making of kryptonite, that apology pissed me off, and then for both Lena and Alex to come at Supergirl, that REALLY PISSED ME OFF.
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I think a lot of this scenario of the "Lena doesn't know" plot has been from Lena's perspective. Our perspective is our truth, whether it is correct or not, it is our truth. What Lena sees is that, everyone in her life.....EVERYONE....knew a very important bit of information, and she didn't. What she saw on the screen is something we don't get when we have been in situations where it seems like everyone in your crowd knew something but you didn't get the memo. That happens a lot to me in my family. What Lena saw through the footage that Lex had was how Kara physically made decisions to do things that kept Lena from finding out. So, not only was it a mental decision to not tell her, she followed through time and time again to keep the information from her. Then add on top of that, that EVERYONE ELSE knew.

Lena for the first time put her whole trust in someone. Kara..... people can debate till the cows come home as to why she couldn't figure it out on her own. I think she might well have suspected but put it out of her mind because why......why would her best friend, her adopted family, keep that information from her. I mean, seriously....you don't know, what you don't know....lol Kara has told her she isn't like her brother, her stepmother, that the Luthors are lucky to have her, not the other way around,
WHY would Kara keep that from her? Is what is going through her mind now....probably over and over again.

So, though yes, I am very tired of Kara apologizing to Lena for this or that, for me it is more the apologizing for being upset about the making of kryptonite, that apology pissed me off, and then for both Lena and Alex to come at Supergirl, that REALLY PISSED ME OFF. But for this plot scenario, Kara should have told much earlier than this, Kara allowed her fear of losing Lena as a friend keep her from doing the right thing. NOW we are seeing the consequences of that, again from Lena's perspective. WE KNOW KARA'S PERSPECTIVE, she loves Lena as a sister and only wants the best for her. We know Kara's heart very well......so though we may be mad at how Lena seems to be handling this bit of information.....lol, hey its her truth and holy cow....at how it is playing out. I think we are seeing not just pain from the not being told, but ALL OF THE EMOTIONS that she has pushed down throughout her entire life as people kept things from her, manipulated her behind her back, and she was just beginning to feel safe and BAM! I think it is far more HOW she found out, than WHAT she found out.....and I think we see that playing out in the trailer. I'm freaking excited to see how this plays out in the first few episodes. I may be pissed off after I see it, but I'm just going to look forward to it for now.
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Kara didn't betray Lena. She kept a part of herself secret because she was not ready to share. As Lena has done quite a number of times.

With that covered. I wouldn't mind if it goes either way. Lena deciding that her not knowing about Kara was some kind of betrayal even if it wasn't and taking revenge. And Kara having to fight to resolve it and then a line being crossed when Lena inevitably causes harm as she has done consistently since S2--Daxamite invasion being the main one and Harun El drugs in the market another--and Kara having to give up on it.

Or, Lena finally coming to her senses and Kara reassuring her that she does have her back as she has shown time and again. But, please don't keep ruining other people's lives because you need therapy.
This 100 times over. I am so over the show always making it appear that Kara is the bad guy in their friendship. That it is she that has done something wrong and has to grovel to Lena as some kind of penance. I know Kara is a superhero and supposed to be self-sacrificing and all that, but if we're trying to show that anyone, even humans, can be a superhero why can't these folks do a bit of self-sacrificing of their own. Kara had a right to not tell Lena or anyone else about her secret and while I look forward to Lena going more on the evil side, I think her finding out that Kara kept a secret as the catalyst to it is very shallow and weak.
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Kara didn't betray Lena. She kept a part of herself secret because she was not ready to share. As Lena has done quite a number of times.

With that covered. I wouldn't mind if it goes either way. Lena deciding that her not knowing about Kara was some kind of betrayal even if it wasn't and taking revenge. And Kara having to fight to resolve it and then a line being crossed when Lena inevitably causes harm as she has done consistently since S2--Daxamite invasion being the main one and Harun El drugs in the market another--and Kara having to give up on it.

Or, Lena finally coming to her senses and Kara reassuring her that she does have her back as she has shown time and again. But, please don't keep ruining other people's lives because you need therapy.
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I would like to see Lena's anger take her down a dark path, gets herself into trouble, Kara pulls her back and Lena realizes Kara is the same person she became friends with, and thank goodness she is Supergirl or she (Lena) would be dead....lol.
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