The State of the Supergirl Fandom

Holy crap Kelly that was an excellent breakdown of the groups within this fandom!

You have several groups within this fandom...

Fans like myself, who are just tired of the shipping all together, who would like for Kara to be single, but by no means want Mon-el off the show, and even if they are still together, that is fine....just less screen time on their lovey dovey stuff so to speak, and we would like less of that all the way around. There are a lot of us, we just don't speak out all that much, we enjoy the show and go about our business. I would venture to say that the majority on this site and the one I work on, along with many others fall into this category. They love Supergirl, they want more Supergirl, they want more Kara, they want more of the sister time that we saw in the 1st season....but as far as the abuse accusations, the toxic relationship accusation....we kind of shake our heads at that, and just don't see it. If others saw that, ok....everyone takes from a series what they will.....

You have fans that want #Karamel married....probably not going to happen, certainly would bet on it not happening, but in a relationship? sure...

#Supercorp (in its beginnings) had the desire for Kara to be gay and in a relationship with Lena, it shows in their fanfic, their twitter posts, tumblr blogs, photoshops, and artwork...to say that isn't at their core is just wrong. Once it was clear that that is not going to happen, they melded with those that have found the writing to be abusive, and toxic when it comes to Mon-el and they are loud, these two groups have melded into one for all practical purposes on twitter and tumblr.

Then you have those that agree with the abusive and toxic dialogue but do not want to be associated with the group above, they are not as vocal, they are not as harassing and they actually don't like what is happening within that group even though they may agree with some aspects of their agenda....I use the word agenda, because there is an organized effort, with specific talking points that are being driven on a constant basis..... agenda --
a list, plan, outline, or the like, of things to be done, matters to be acted or voted upon, etc.:
So, this group that agrees with the "lists" the "outline" do not agree with the plan of action in how these things are being acted upon. I totally understand that....please understand, those of us that like what we have seen in Season 2 with some things to be built upon or tweeked don't like being lumped into what some are calling "that toxic Supergirl fandom" so I totally understand where you are coming from.

As far as #Sanvers and #Karamel? Yes, they have their extremists (for lack of a better word) as well.....but they do not have what would be called an agenda from the above definition. Why? because they don't need an agenda, what they are wanting is happening....their ships are canon at this point, there is no need for an organized effort to get their desires across to the PTB. They fight with #Supercorp people in their defense of their ship, in defense of themselves for the most part.....#Sanvers as well, and you have some within the #Sanvers ship that agree with that very first group of #Supercorp people I described above.

As far as #Karolsen, I might have gotten that wrong in the spelling.....that ship sailed, and it is not coming back. That was made very clear by the writers at the beginning of the 2nd season when they were asked point blank what happened. They said that at the end of Season 1 it was what they wanted, but as they began to see it come to light in their discussions, it just wasn't there for them. Whether it was lack of chemistry between the actors, lack of desire on the part of the writers to try and force it to see if it would work, whatever their reasons, they said that it just did not work.

As far as that first group of #Supercorp people, that story line is not going to come to light...no matter how much they scream about it. It's just not going to happen. I do however think that if given the time, and correct direction from the director, that friendship could be very special. YES, it has to have bumps along the way, if it didn't it would be boring....

It is very obvious that these writers are committed to #Sanvers, it is just how much time they have with Floriana...I hope a lot more than what we are being led to believe...

As far as #Karamel, I know the writers really like the chemistry between the two, as do the directors that have worked with them....BUT, once we see who Mon-el becomes, if he becomes Valor, will they continue in a relationship, will they not.....that is just something we have to wait and see. But one thing is clear, Chris is coming back as a strong part of the story.....in what capacity remains to be seen.

As far as "will they, will they not" make a statement in regards to the topics of abuse, and what some are saying was a toxic relationship between Kara and Mon-el....we may have that answer at Comic-con.....I do not believe the writers, or the actors, or the PTB believe what they wrote, created, and put up on the screen was any of those things, but they may very well speak to some of the concerns. If they do, I have a feeling it will be along the lines of what I just stated, if they don't say anything.....that is an answer in itself....and it probably goes back to again, what I stated above. That is just my gut feeling, that is something we will just have to wait and see......but we can go back and forth here, and we can call each other whatever ship we want to, but I believe people here have their opinions, and no matter how many times we repeat our thoughts on the subject....no one's mind is going to be changed....it becomes "beating a dead horse"

As for myself however, one of the reasons I went so strongly in the other thread was because it was the elephant in the room, and the passive aggressive debate was getting no where. I am one that likes everything out on the table for all to see.

My final thoughts on all of these "ships" is this....... you can make an omelette using 30 eggs, 29 of them can be the very best quality eggs on the market, but if #30 is rotten....that omelette is rotten and that 1 egg, ruins the omelette. I think that is what "ships" are doing to a fantastic series.

Nope, I'm a karolsen. I posted about it a while ago; if you dig through the forum you can find the post.

Well they're not a SC shipper, they just strongly dislike Mon-El.

I get your point. But you're going about it all the wrong way. You're calling all people who dislike Mon-El SC shippers, which I've shown is wrong. That's why I tend to make myself clear in saying 'some' instead of calling out the entire SC fandom.

Would you assume that a huge majority of the people who dislike Lena are Karamels? By your logic I would think, yes. But I'm sure there are people who dislike her regardless of shipping. I'm not saying you're wrong to think that a lot of SC shippers dislike Mon-El, or that they didn't send Rahul hate. But the same is said for all those KM and Sanvers shippers who dislike Lena or spread hate about Katie.

My point is that the negativity in the shipdom goes all ways. The difference is that the SC side is much louder and upfront about it (which isn't a good thing) whereas KM and Sanvers sides are on the quieter side.

All I'm asking is that you not generalize/use blanket statements. You have a tendency to do it and it's just extremely frustrating.

There are plenty of accounts attacking characters; accounts attacking Mon-El, Maggie, Lena and so on. Characters getting hate is nothing new, and that's not our problem in the shipdom. People are allowed to hate all they like on a character, the problem is when people take their hate for a character and place it on real people. I think every actor has gotten hate at one point or another, but the three who seem to take the brunt of it are Chris, Floriana and Katie. I've seen people wishing death on all three of them..what kind of people do that? I'll tell you, people who can't differentiate between fiction and non-fiction.

No problem, Jordan860 is not a SC shipper and doesn't like Mon-El. I'm not a shipper and I don't like Mon-El (or Maggie for that matter). I remember VeeJer expressing their dislike for Mon-El and they're not a shipper either. There are people out there who don't like him and aren't SC shippers, we're just not as vocal/crazy about it as some of those SC shippers. Just because you don't see us doesn't mean we're not here.

I am Sorry if you see it like this. Never was my intention.

My favorite is Kara/Supergirl actually. But if you can find Where karamels write "#KillLena ect to writers on Twitter or create tumblr and Twitter accounts dedicated to just hating on Lena or others. Then be my guest. Would definitely say they are SC shippers seen their replies and writing things like "Kara is now free from the abuser to be with Lena"

From my experience its pretty much all SC shippers. Rahul said it best, Kevin Smith also. The SDCC moderator as well. Thalolli and others made it clear. When they only see something wrong with him and not the other relationship or characters its a clear agenda. Thalolli and evrafter listed these wrongs here.

Exactly, from your experience. So why are you constantly making blanket statements?

And we've already gone over all the stuff you point out, you're just bringing it up again to drive home a point we've already accepted. I don't understand your line of thinking; you seem to ignore anything negative about (I'm assuming) your favorite character and ship. You want others to take your truth and accept is as their own, but then get huffy when others want you to do the same.

Yes, Thalolli and evrafter made some great points. But what you fail to grasp is that the negativity here isn't just from one part of the shipdom. Yes some SC shippers take things too far, but so do some KM shippers (there are posts in this thread listing the things they have done). The fact that you refuse to accept that is baffling to me. How blinded can a person be?

Actually 9-10 of those are in fact SC shippers. Its all hate for a selfish agenda to push on to the show. Its funny they call Kara and Mon-El toxic when there is nothing toxic about it. But to force 2 girls together the writers has said multiple times on the show that they are straight is definitely toxic.

I don't know what your deal is starlord, but you have a nasty habit of stating things like facts. "Actually 9-10 of those are in fact SC shippers" what the heck kind of statement is that? Are you out there polling fans? Maybe the fans you've interacted with are SC shippers but that doesn't mean you can make blanket statements like that.

You don't find them toxic, others do. That doesn't make you right and them wrong or them right and you wrong. How do you not get that? I think we can all agree that not everyone shares the same opinions, and opinions aren't wrong or right.

And please let's refrain from the lgbt stuff. That's a whole other can of worms that I believe none of us should open.

Again, that obviously wasn't the intent but it is becoming problematic that this is how people are interpreting it.

And I think it's problematic if people are incapable of moving on from an interpretation they got stuck on and act like they try to force it as the only one and true interpretation. And again, the fact that they lock on on just one relationship and just one character rather than having a fair look at how a variety of characters on the show have acted with each other (again Lena and Jack joking about how she threw a hard object at him a fight, Mon-El talking about how he expects to be beaten up as punishment during training by Kara and her agreeing with that, Alex taking Kara to the kryptonite room and beating her to teach her a lesson about being more careful in the field) makes it really hard to buy that they really have a genuine interest in how relationships are portrayed on tv or on Supergirl in particular. And if at the same time they ferociously lobby for a ship of their choice AND also refuse to accept if the situation has changed (like: Mon-El used to want to protect Kara even if she didn't want it, to him taking her orders even if it puts her into danger, or Mon-El doubting Kara's heroism to Mon-El praising Kara's heroism over and over) to makes it even harder to truly get into their arguments.

But the big difference in all of these relationships is that they aren't being touted as the main relationship. Jack/Lena were barely given anything. Alex/Kara have shown how intense their relationship is, and those scenes aren't shown with quirky music in the background (like the DEO fight scene between Kara/Mon-El), they're meant to be serious and are shown as such. The writers have a bad habit of making light of the questionably problematic scenes between Kara and Mon-El; they shouldn't.

There is plenty of shippers who don't use these arguments and there are people who use those arguments and aren't shippers.

For everybody who isn't a shipper but shares those arguments, my response would always be, either consider that the show is going with a different interpretation and story or if you can't overcome this apprehension, watch something that doesn't upset you.

The sentence I bolded really hit the nail on the head! I pretty much agree with you here. I just find it unfortunate for those who can no longer enjoy a show that once brought them joy.

one of which (abusive relationship traits)

But that's the problem. Some people not accepting that it's just one option, one that isn't shared by the writers. But instead people acting like that's the only right and true interpretation that everybody must share and if they don't share it they are wrong.

Again, that obviously wasn't the intent but it is becoming problematic that this is how people are interpreting it.

And I think it's problematic if people are incapable of moving on from an interpretation they got stuck on and act like they try to force it as the only one and true interpretation. And again, the fact that they lock on on just one relationship and just one character rather than having a fair look at how a variety of characters on the show have acted with each other (again Lena and Jack joking about how she threw a hard object at him during a fight, Mon-El talking about how he expects to be beaten up as punishment during training by Kara and her agreeing with that, Alex taking Kara to the kryptonite room and beating her to teach her a lesson about being more careful in the field) makes it really hard to buy that they really have a genuine interest in how relationships are portrayed on tv or on Supergirl in particular. And if at the same time they ferociously lobby for a ship of their choice AND also refuse to accept if the situation has changed (like: Mon-El used to want to protect Kara even if she didn't want it, to him taking her orders even if it puts her into danger, or Mon-El doubting Kara's heroism to Mon-El praising Kara's heroism over and over) to makes it even harder to truly get into their arguments.

You fail to realize that people voicing their frustrations aren't all shippers. You've now turned the 'agenda' into a shipping thing which quickly falls into the 'gay' agenda issue.

No I'm saying those fans who latch on to this argument AND then turn around and ferociously ship something come across like that (again, zeroing in on one character, rather than giving a fair assessment of the actions of other characters too), respectively use it as part of their laundry list shipper arguments to explain to the world why their ship is so much better and how everybody shipping something else is wrong and immoral.

There is plenty of shippers who don't use these arguments and there are people who use those arguments and aren't shippers.

For everybody who isn't a shipper but shares those arguments, my response would always be, either consider that the show is going with a different interpretation and story or if you can't overcome this apprehension, watch something that doesn't upset you.

I would suggest simply shipping your ship of choice, but please do so without dragging other aspects of the show. dont disparage, bully or harass actors, writers or other fans.

We tend to forget that happiness doesn't come as a result of getting something we don't have, but of appreciating what we do have.

Neither the hat nor the words nor the action was there with the intent to trigger. And it's about accepting that those hats or actions or words have alternative explanations.

I've already agreed that the intent obviously isn't there. And I agree, there are alternative explanations, one of which (abusive relationship traits) is being blasted by 'fans' right now.

To me it's pretty clear that neither Mon-El or Alex or Lena (remember how she and Jack JOKED about the fact that Lena used to throw a microscope at his head during a fight?) are meant to be written as abusive people and hence they also won't be written and end up as abusive people. So to call them abusive is to me in the end a misnomer.

Yeah I'm with you on that, I don't believe it was ever anyone's intention to write these characters as abusive. I don't see them as such. But I can see why some have taken issue with the relationship as it regretfully presents initial sings of emotional abuse. Again, that obviously wasn't the intent but it is becoming problematic that this is how people are interpreting it.

I didn't mean to imply that a 'trigger' for some people is a 'trigger' for all. But it is a reality to those people, it is their fact and we can't just ignore that because it's not ours.

Of course we can. We are not friends. We and the show are not friends. The show can't make every person who will ever watch it happy and they can't account for every personal issue any of their million plus viewers might have.

I wasn't insinuating that any of us or the show cater to those who cry foul. My point is that we can't pretend as if this stuff isn't happening; that there aren't people genuinely upset over one of their favorite tv shows. We can (and should) acknowledge things like this, doesn't mean we have to change anything.

But if seems like the people are staying around to defend and obsess over their ship and trying to get the show to make their ship happen, it seems like they are just using this as an excuse to get what they want in a shipper sense.

You fail to realize that people voicing their frustrations aren't all shippers. You've now turned the 'agenda' into a shipping thing which quickly falls into the 'gay' agenda issue. Take a look into the arguments on social media; majority of fans are in favor of Kara having no relationship.

Ahh see now you're just twisting this. The 'triggers' here are actions and words, don't try to trivialize this.

It does not matter if the trigger is hat or a word like "you look so hot, baby" or an action like putting an arm on somebody's shoulder from behind.

Neither the hat nor the words nor the action was there with the intent to trigger. And it's about accepting that those hats or actions or words have alternative explanations.

To me it's pretty clear that neither Mon-El or Alex or Lena (remember how she and Jack JOKED about the fact that Lena used to throw a microscope at his head during a fight?) are meant to be written as abusive people and hence they also won't be written and end up as abusive people. So to call them abusive is to me in the end a misnomer.

I'm talking about people who bring up their issues with the show, but then are shut down by others.

Everybody can bring up issues with the show. The problems are always just the people who don't take no for an answer. And especially on something based on deeply personal experience, you just can't expect every viewer to share the same position. And somebody saying "I hear you, but that is just not my experience, I just don't feel the same way" is something that just has a high likelihood of happening.

I didn't mean to imply that a 'trigger' for some people is a 'trigger' for all. But it is a reality to those people, it is their fact and we can't just ignore that because it's not ours.

Of course we can. We are not friends. We and the show are not friends. The show can't make every person who will ever watch it happy and they can't account for every personal issue any of their million plus viewers might have.

Obviously the writers' intentions weren't to create an abusive character (at least I hope it wasn't). But fact of the matter is that Mon-El is coming off as such to many fans and it's creating so much ridiculous chaos in the fandom. I don't condone all the hateful attacks on the cast/writers, but I can understand why those fans are pissed. I believe they're voices (when respectful) should be heard and not immediately shut down by being told they're overreacting or are projecting.

I can understand having an instinctive reaction. But I also think that then they also have to accept that that is just not how the show is going to go down. Mon-El most likely isn't going to turn into an abuser just because he had a scene that reminded somebody of something.

If a person saw Supergirl the tv show, got turned off by a scene and decided to never watch it again they would have my condolences. But if seems like the people are staying around to defend and obsess over their ship and trying to get the show to make their ship happen, it seems like they are just using this as an excuse to get what they want in a shipper sense.

If for example an actor and his portrayal consistently rubs you the wrong way in a deeply personal way, then I'm sorry, the best solution really is to stop watching. If you can't accept the interpretation of the show, that Kara and Mon-El have had as far as the writers are concerned some deep genuine feelings for each other, again, to me that's time to move on. I've personally moved on from many shows because I found a certain development was too unrealistic and unpleasant.

Very well put! Although I continue to take issue with the whole 'agenda' thing. Because while you make an excellent point of what agenda could possibly mean, it has become evident that within the SG shipping fandom 'agenda' is almost always in reference to the idea that SC shippers are trying to push a f/f couple on us. 'Agenda' holds so much negative connotation and when brought up in discussions/arguments of a f/f ship it becomes grossly homophobic.

Well I have explained on how I understand agenda and I intend to keep using it as that. To me agenda (though I do think that it gets overused) in the end about a deeply dishonest way of arguing.

Like saying one thing, while having a different true intention. That is not exclusive to gay fans. This very much exists among hereto fans as well.

Let's say there is a couple A & B and a rival couple B & C. Such dishonest behavior would be trying to trash the actor or actress C in the hope that they will get fired or leave because the fans of A & B want C out of their hair or want the fans out of their hair. Or they might even start praising C and go on about how him or her should find a new job elsewhere, but they don't actually care about C, they really just want their piece for A & B. Or they might suddenly support a pairing between C & D, not because they actually like C &D (the lines there are often fluid) but because it is convenient for A & B.

Trashing all other couples and characters to make your couple A & B look good in comparison. Trying to scare people off shipping any other couple, just so you can use "See, nobody likes them" as an argument as to why the show should go with your couple.

These are all things I've seen plenty of in fandoms where there were only hereto couples involved (Vampire Diaries springs to mind).

And it's just a really obnoxious attitude. Because it means you constantly feel like the person you are talking to is being dishonest or like they constantly view everything as "political" in the sense of how they can make the best argument about how the other side is inferior and bad and horrible and how that totally means they couple is best and should be done or get all the screentime.

I understand your point, I do. But that doesn't really seem to fit the bill here, at least not to me. I don't see much of other ships being praised/lorded over others. I see a great deal of people tearing down the karamel relationship on it's own.

To me agenda (though I do think that it gets overused) in the end about a deeply dishonest way of arguing.

In the case of this shipdom, people think that the only reason for the dislike of Mon-El is that he is in the way of their ship. But I think we've seen that this isn't always true. People are crying 'agenda' when they're under the impression that his dislike is due to shipping. It's under these circumstances that agenda becomes synonymous with the 'gay' agenda and that in and of itself is an entirely problematic way of thinking.

If somebody were raped by a guy in a red hat and on the show they start watching the main character suddenly starts wearing a red hat and gives them flashbacks => would it make sense to demand the show change it?

Ahh see now you're just twisting this. The 'triggers' here are actions and words, don't try to trivialize this.

If a show causes somebody anguish rather than entertainment then imo they should stop watching for their own sake.

I agree. But that doesn't mean that those people can't voice their concerns about said show. And I'm not talking about those outrageous fans who take things too far. I'm talking about people who bring up their issues with the show, but then are shut down by others.

My point... Relationships have their ugly moments If some of the ugly is shown on tv, and its a trigger for someone, they shouldn't watch. But what is a trigger for someone doesn't mean it's bad for all. That trigger doesn't mean it's reality. It doesn't make it fact. Triggers can be REMINDERS of a past event. But it doesn't necessarily mean the past represents present.

If a group of writers and executives don't see a character as abusive, it's probable that character isn't abusive. Doesn't mean behaviors of said character won't trigger someone's personal experience. So my initial comments about fans who experience these triggers but then attack writers, actors, the rest of the fan base, THAT is what worries me.

No doubt, I agree that relationships have ugly moments. But in the case of the show, they try to play off these ugly moments as cute or funny. I'd rather they work through them as a real relationship would.

I didn't mean to imply that a 'trigger' for some people is a 'trigger' for all. But it is a reality to those people, it is their fact and we can't just ignore that because it's not ours.

Obviously the writers' intentions weren't to create an abusive character (at least I hope it wasn't). But fact of the matter is that Mon-El is coming off as such to many fans and it's creating so much ridiculous chaos in the fandom. I don't condone all the hateful attacks on the cast/writers, but I can understand why those fans are pissed. I believe they're voices (when respectful) should be heard and not immediately shut down by being told they're overreacting or are projecting.

Very well put! Although I continue to take issue with the whole 'agenda' thing. Because while you make an excellent point of what agenda could possibly mean, it has become evident that within the SG shipping fandom 'agenda' is almost always in reference to the idea that SC shippers are trying to push a f/f couple on us. 'Agenda' holds so much negative connotation and when brought up in discussions/arguments of a f/f ship it becomes grossly homophobic.

Well I have explained on how I understand agenda and I intend to keep using it as that. To me agenda (though I do think that it gets overused) in the end about a deeply dishonest way of arguing.

Like saying one thing, while having a different true intention. That is not exclusive to gay fans. This very much exists among hereto fans as well.

Let's say there is a couple A & B and a rival couple B & C. Such dishonest behavior would be trying to trash the actor or actress C in the hope that they will get fired or leave because the fans of A & B want C out of their hair or want the fans out of their hair. Or they might even start praising C and go on about how him or her should find a new job elsewhere, but they don't actually care about C, they really just want their piece for A & B. Or they might suddenly support a pairing between C & D, not because they actually like C &D (the lines there are often fluid) but because it is convenient for A & B. A lot of these are sometimes kinda annoying but harmless.

Still, you have things like trashing all other couples and characters to make your couple A & B look good in comparison. Trying to scare people off shipping any other couple, just so you can use "See, nobody likes them" as an argument as to why the show should go with your couple. And of course aggressively lobbying to get people fired beyond "well if they happen to be unpopular, I'm sure the show will do the right thing eventually". And worst of course direct stalking or threatening of the actors.

Most of these are all things I've seen plenty of in fandoms where there were only hereto couples involved (Vampire Diaries springs to mind). And at this point f/f or m/m fans are just the same in that way. (in a very weird way this also speaks to a positive development because in the past I think fans of gay couples felt like they were on the defensive and forced to be nice. Now they are just as nasty and aggressive as everybody else)

And it's just a really obnoxious attitude. Because it means you constantly feel like the person you are talking to is being dishonest or like they constantly view everything as "political" in the sense of how they can make the best argument about how the other side is inferior and bad and horrible and how that totally means they couple is best and should be done or get all the screentime.

I don't even think that fans do it intentionally a lot of the time, like some great conspiracy. It's just a gut reaction to want to defend the honor of a fictional couple, and they start to lose sight and start to act terrible to others in the process.

And nobody's saying their relationship needs to be perfect, just healthy. Healthy couples argue, that's a fact. But they argue about inconsequential things; they don't lash out at each other over the basis of who each person is. If they do do that, can we really be calling them a healthy couple? If couples are finding so much fault in who their significant other is should that couple really be together?

Actually, healthy couples fight about all kinds of things, not all are inconsequential. But, that doesn't make them automatically unhealthy.

"If couples are finding so much fault in who their significant other is should that couple really be together?"

If you're referring to Mon-El and Kara, I can't answer that. It's a relationship created by writers, and we only see bits and pieces on screen of said fictional relationship. For all we know, they attend couple therapy.

But, as far as this relates to the Supergirl fandom: You're correct. People can watch something that for THEM is a trigger for a past experience. As a high school teacher, we have a way to work with that...a student can opt out of a book, a video, an assignment. They don't attack other students or the teacher because they don't choose to opt out also.

Another example: Working at lock-down, sex-ed was a whole different beast than in public school. The therapists and nurses showed very graffic sex-ed videos. If a therapist knew it was going to be a trigger for a student, arrangements were made. But, that didn't make sex bad because it was a trigger for others. Harsh example to what we are talking about, but I've seen very harsh, vile comments coming from shipdoms. My point... Relationships have their ugly moments. If some of the ugly is shown on tv, and its a trigger for someone, they shouldn't watch. But what is a trigger for someone doesn't mean it's bad for all. That trigger doesn't mean it's reality. It doesn't make it fact. Triggers can be REMINDERS of a past event. But it doesn't necessarily mean the past represents present.

If a group of writers and executives don't see a character as abusive, it's probable that character isn't abusive. Doesn't mean behaviors of said character won't trigger someone's personal experience. So my initial comments about fans who experience these triggers but then attack writers, actors, the rest of the fan base, THAT is what worries me.

Here's an awful example but, if someone who was raped in real life watches a scene in tv show/movie of a character being raped, would that not affect them? Would it not bring up horrific memories?

If somebody were raped by a guy in a red hat and on the show they start watching the main character suddenly starts wearing a red hat and gives them flashbacks => would it make sense to demand the show change it?

What if you change it to a blue hat, and suddenly there's a different person who was raped by somebody in a blue hat?

If you had a friend in real life who started wearing a red hat you might tell them to please stop wearing it and if they are friend they would stop doing so. But a tv show is not your friend, no matter how much the PR department makes the actors pretend they are just like real friends to the viewers.

A show is watched by millions of people all over the world they can't account for every possibility. Because it's a tv show, not your personal friend. And that doesn't even cover things like making one group happy at the expense of another or at the expense of the artistic vision of the creator.

If a show causes somebody anguish rather than entertainment then imo they should stop watching for their own sake.

And nobody's saying their relationship needs to be perfect, just healthy.

A fictional relationship doesn't need to be healthy, it just needs to be interesting to watch. For example, there are a lot of ways it could be debated that at least some aspects of the Kara/Alex relationship are unhealthy, even if the participants are deeply well meaning.

Not to mention, people have relationship that are neither that healthy nor that unhealthy all the time. They are part of life.

I fear those who have so much vitrol against Mon-El or any character for that matter, have some deep seeded issues that need addressing. I fear many are projecting their real life issues onto a ficticional show. I fear they have a warped view on reality. I worry they don't realize there is no perfect relationship... that arguments or stumbling don't always mean devistation and abuse.

Great thoughts evrafter, thanks for sharing! This last paragraph rubs me the wrong way though. There is a reason people 'project', and it's because they find too much similarity between something they went through and something being shown on TV for entertainment purposes. People watch these shows to be entertained, not to reminded of the awful things they've gone through in life. We each have our own reality, what someone else takes issue with you or I might not.

Here's an awful example but, if someone who was raped in real life watches a scene in tv show/movie of a character being raped, would that not affect them? Would it not bring up horrific memories?

That's what seems to be happening here. People have expressed that these types of viewers need more therapy. And that idea there is just a big no from me. Therapy is meant to help people heal and overcome, not make you forget or turn a blind eye.

And nobody's saying their relationship needs to be perfect, just healthy. Healthy couples argue, that's a fact. But they argue about inconsequential things; they don't lash out at each other over the basis of who each person is. If they do do that, can we really be calling them a healthy couple? If couples are finding so much fault in who their significant other is should that couple really be together?

The "agenda" excuse ignores the fact that people have real, valid reasons for not liking mon el. It's a way to discredit people. I didn't mean to insinuate that you were homophobic, and I'm sorry that it seemed that way. That was not my intention. But saying that people only hate mon el for a f/f shipping agenda is homophobic.

The problem is that while valid reasons exist, some people do things that are completely not valid.

A good example is the trashing of the actor who played Jack just because he was cast. Jack wasn't even on screen and the actor was already sent hate messages. Something that isn't reasonable in any interpretation possible.

Similarly, a lot of things have been used as "reasons" that were flat out untrue (like "Kara and Mon-El are blood related in the comics", something that has never been a thing in any comic incarnation).

People don't need "reasons" to prefer one ship over another, most people just gravitate towards who they find more hot or whose story archetype (ie friends to lovers, childhood sweethearts, enemies falling for each other) they like most. But if some people keep up listing things that are flat out untrue or unreasonable, like sending hate mail to the actor of a character who hasn't even aired yet, that's when other people will grow weary of those supposed reasons.

Not to mention people who call Mon-El abusive, yet see nothing wrong with other characters who do things that are easily comparable if not worse than things Mon-El has done in the relationship.

That's why a lot of the times people like what they like and they then use supposed reasons to explain why nobody else should like them and why the writers should stop writing them.

And that's when it moves away from something being a "reason" to really being more like laundry lists in a pseudo political argument about why your position of "I think this couple is cuter than that couple" is somehow "more right" and more morally righteous. It makes it feel like rather than watching the show and taking it for face value and talking about what you actually see on the show, some people start parsing it for arguments they can use in their laundry lists so they can beat the laundry lists of all the other people.

And that's why people start calling it "agenda". That it seems like some people have a goal, to "defeat" the other couples and have their couple reign supreme and they look for "weapons" in this "fight".

I don't need a laundry list of reasons to dislike a character. Usually there is like one scene at the most, then I start not liking the character, but to me that's it. I just move on to liking the characters I like. And unless the character I started to dislike does something spectacular to make me like them, I pretty much ignore them and don't look for new reasons to not like them.

Very well put! Although I continue to take issue with the whole 'agenda' thing. Because while you make an excellent point of what agenda could possibly mean, it has become evident that within the SG shipping fandom 'agenda' is almost always in reference to the idea that SC shippers are trying to push a f/f couple on us. 'Agenda' holds so much negative connotation and when brought up in discussions/arguments of a f/f ship it becomes grossly homophobic.

SUCH a great response and write-up, Thalolli!! Here's MY two cents that I haven't really given. I've stayed out of most of the argument because I just want to be a Supergirl fan. The following ideas could go in the Mon-El thread, but the ending thoughts fit for ANY fan. So, I'm placing my thoughts here.

"Not to mention people who call Mon-El abusive, yet see nothing wrong with other characters who do things that are easily comparable if not worse than things Mon-El has done in the relationship."

I.e.... Maggie consitantly lying to Alex....Maggie cheating AND lying about it. Hmm... Isn't that exactly what Mon-El was doing--lying because he was ashamed of his past?

Then there's Kara. She hasn't been a Saint. Or James being ok with taking a baseball bat to thieves. Etc etc etc etc

The point is... First: this is a show.. fiction. Not real. I've read comments after comments on social media that very much concern me....people blurring the lines between what's real and what's fiction.

Second: People in life AND in fiction are imperfect. I've read comments made against Mon-El and many times have found myself thinking, "Yikes...if that's the standard that person has for a real relationship, that person will forever be a party of one." Example: my parents have been married since 1968. I've heard doors slammed. They've argued....and, oh my gosh...yes... sometimes even in public. But, that's reality, it's human, its growing. Relationships can be ugly because humans are... imperfect. My parents are incredible, and they are incredibly in love. That's what real relationships are like...giving, and taking, and learning, and forgiving, and forgiving again.

Yes, there ARE abusive relationships. There IS child abuse, spousal abuse, partner abuse. I taught 4 years at a lock-down facility for youth from all over the world... Famous kids to even a girl who lived by hopping train after train after train, to a girl who lived in a cardboard box in a Washington D.C. park. Kids who had been molested. Kids who had molested others. Little boys who were sold for sex so their moms could get drugs. I've seen it all. But, an argument between parents or an arguments between a parent and child, especially in a ficticious tv show written by a group of writers does in no way automatically mean they are headed down an evil or milicious path.

Sure wish some people in fandoms would bring it down a notch...step away and regroup himself/herself. I fear those who have so much vitrol against Mon-El or any character for that matter, have some deep seeded issues that need addressing. I fear many are projecting their real life issues onto a ficticional show. I fear they have a warped view on reality. I worry they don't realize there is no perfect relationship... that arguments or stumbling don't always mean devistation and abuse.