SG and BW ratings thus far...

Tv Line and TV By The Numbers are legitimate sites and have only reported facts about the ratings.

Cosmic Book News is not a legitimate website and has written their article with a clickbait-driven agenda.

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That is why I added the additional links. In any event, the numbers given only tell a small part of the overall story. Let's see how things progress and make a more global assessment once COIE has come and gone.

Tv Line and TV By The Numbers are legitimate sites and have only reported facts about the ratings.

Cosmic Book News is not a legitimate website and has written their article with a clickbait-driven agenda.

@Romulus, I think that the issues with Justice League go way deeper than different interpretations of some same characters.

From what I've been hearing about DC Comics and their own internal relationships, there is a major growth effort get more teams talking and more characters shared. Think of Crisis, we will literally be seeing multiple version of Superman and I think the audience is excited for it, not confused by it.

Fun anecdote told to press only at NYCC (which Kelsey and I have a representative at, ha, we're growing), Warner Brothers TV was developing a Joker origin story show and didn't know DC Entertainment was developing a Joker origin story movie. This really started the new push for internal communication and a renewed want to share characters and allow new interpretations. Harley Quinn's animated show will really push boundaries in a new way.

Let me address a couple of things in the Admin's post, particularly the last paragraph...

1...the movie Joker is a hit, a big hit.

2...In terms of the Harley Quinn animated project, I saw an interview with the voice of Harley Quinn none other than Kaley Cuoco (from the recently ended Big Bang Theory) on the new Kelly Clarkson Show. And let me tell you, HQ is nothing at all like Penny. Kaley admits dropping some F-bombs is therapy for her.

3..Great to know there is an SG.TV rep that goes to NY Comic Con.

@Romulus, I think that the issues with Justice League go way deeper than different interpretations of some same characters.

Totally on point. Seemed to me like there were different interpretations of the same characters within the movie.

From what I've been hearing about DC Comics and their own internal relationships, there is a major growth effort get more teams talking and more characters shared. Think of Crisis, we will literally be seeing multiple version of Superman and I think the audience is excited for it, not confused by it.

I think general audiences (i.e., not just comic book nerds like me) are more sophisticated and willing to accept things like multiverses, alternate timelines, and just different interpretations of a character than they were, say, 10 years ago. The Phoenix Joker standalone is proof of that I think, coming relatively soon after Leto's take in Suicide Squad.

Fun anecdote told to press only at NYCC (which Kelsey and I have a representative at, ha, we're growing), Warner Brothers TV was developing a Joker origin story show and didn't know DC Entertainment was developing a Joker origin story movie. This really started the new push for internal communication and a renewed want to share characters and allow new interpretations. Harley Quinn's animated show will really push boundaries in a new way.

As a longtime fan of both characters, I gotta say--I'm kinda "Joker-and-Harleyed" out.

@Romulus, I think that the issues with Justice League go way deeper than different interpretations of some same characters.

From what I've been hearing about DC Comics and their own internal relationships, there is a major growth effort get more teams talking and more characters shared. Think of Crisis, we will literally be seeing multiple version of Superman and I think the audience is excited for it, not confused by it.

Fun anecdote told to press only at NYCC (which Kelsey and I have a representative at, ha, we're growing), Warner Brothers TV was developing a Joker origin story show and didn't know DC Entertainment was developing a Joker origin story movie. This really started the new push for internal communication and a renewed want to share characters and allow new interpretations. Harley Quinn's animated show will really push boundaries in a new way.

Supergirl.tv Admin wrote:

"Also for those saying Supergirl needs to end so they can make their DCEU Movie, Why wasn't Smallville axed when Brandon Routh's Superman returns was made."

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Actually, that is quite simple: Smallville was always touted as a Clark Kent coming-of-age story and not a Superman one. For 10 years just before the suit reveal in the last episode, the story was touted as Clark's adventures in Smallville (hence, the title). He never wore the suit until the very end (2011), way after Superman Returns (2006) was shown. Both were treated as very separate entities and only made passing, indirect reference to one-another after SR ended its theatrical run.

As for the DCEU not making movies and TV shows with the same titular characters while one is being shown in one medium or another, this makes sense in order for fans to make firm distinctions between them. If SG is still on the air when the movie is supposed to be shown, it will create a viewer's nightmare/conundrum in the sense that you would have two vastly different interpretations of the same character going at the same time. See the disaster the last Justice League movie was when they had the Flash on both TV and on the movie screen at the same time. Does anyone truly remember the movie version of him anymore?

I will give you an example of DC's recent mixed up logic: Michael Rosenbaum played the teen/young adult version of Lex Luthor in Smallville as Clark Kent's friend/foe/foil. In Superman Returns, Kevin Spacey played the adult version of him as Brandon Routh's Superman nemesis. A clear character distinction was made. In the most recent Justice League film, that distinction was lost with some of the characters. This is part of the reason why the DCEU is in disarray at the moment. Oil and water don't mix, so to speak.

Romulus they Can easily be optained on programinsider.com. Its not an opinion its FACTS.

Its nr 3-4 of ALL their shows. I know what i am talking about. You are not helping with this fear mongering even the site owner here say its not in any danger at all.

Do you see the other CW shows they get 0.2-0.3 on EASIER timeslot than SG. How do you really Think they would do against SUNDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL, WALKING DEAD, CABLE SHOWS FROM HBO ect.. plus normal network competition.

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Thank you, starlord. Had you done this (provide a link and backing facts in your initial posting) to refute the initial links / claims that were posted, we wouldn't need to have this debate ad nauseum. This is what informed debate should look like.

And, no one here is claiming the shows are getting canned. All we are saying is the general perception and basic viewership numbers aren't great. How people interpret that is their own take on things.

So, please, when posting statements like your initial one, in future, kindly provide links and counter-evidence for everyone to discuss. Since the site Admin has provided more context and clarity to the situation (thank you, Admin), we are ALL in a better position to assess how things are.

Again, I repeat, and I'm not being facetious or condescending here, this is what an informed debate should look like.

I'm going to weigh in here. Recently, with the rather large expansion of the sites and shows that Kelsey and I cover, I have been exploring a much larger community of entertainment reporting. I'm getting to know the players, the leakers, the well informed, and the click-baiters.

I have gained a LOT of new sources and contacts and can surprisingly say that I feel like I am a bit more of an informed reporter these days. For those interested on my takes on the larger DC landscape follow me personally on Twitter @EricJohnstonDC. I've seen episodes of Titans that aren't out yet, I've been able to keep pulse on the entire Arrowverse with some powerful press credentials and I've made some industry sources in various locations.

From what I've seen, Cosmic-Book.news is not reliable in the least. They will make up as many stores as they can, if even one sticks, they claim they were in the know all along. I put no value in their reporting and I would encourage all of us to not feel the need to link them at all here. There are other sites that fall into this category but I'm not looking to call people out, I mention them because they have been listed in this thread.

Additionally, let us look at the field as a whole. The CW used to get 0$ on Sunday nights from their new programming because it didn't exist. They relied on syndicated shows that didn't bring in nearly the same revenue Batwoman and Supergirl do. Additionally, Batwoman and the other Arrowverse shows (once the Netflix deal is up) will move to HBO Max exclusively for streaming purposes after the show's broadcast completion. This model is meant to drive up HBO max subscribers and with Warner Brother's owning it all, The CW sits quite happily taking a cut.

Finally, the Arrowverse, even while it is changing, is arguably the best Comic-Based shows on TV. There is not a subscription required to view, and with the changing market on TV, Live +7 means more than Live at all. The resale value of the Arrowverse is much more potent than any traditional ratings system.

Frankly, as long as Grant, Melissa and Ruby wish to stay in their roles, the shows will continue to be made. Syndication, streaming services, resale, collector editions and so on make these properties a gold mine. Not to mention the action figures, statues, pop figures and all other merchandise coming from the Arrowverse.

The DCEU is a mess and is now starting to find more success in these one offs like Joker than it did in the Marvel model. For incredible joined and linked stories, look no further than the Arrowverse. Also for those saying Supergirl needs to end so they can make their DCEU Movie, Why wasn't Smallville axed when Brandon Routh's Superman returns was made.

Ok I'll get off my soap box.

Be at ease, starlord. I am not predicting disaster.

It is just that I would have thought SG would have retained more of BW audience, given the "World's Finest" treatment. In theory, they should pair well.

As I have said consistently here and elsewhere, CW's business model de-emphasizes ratings, particularly overnights.

I agree the show will continue as long as it makes money and Melissa is willing to play the role.

A lot of uninformed people here in this thread. SG is airing on the toughest timeslot of any CW show. Its airing against Sunday Night Football, Walking Dead, Cables Big Hits, all the usual competition from regular network tv too. Most of Shows on CW from weaker timeslot get what SG get on Sundays. Imagine what they would get on sundays at 9 against so much competition. Batwoman only face the beginning of Sunday Night Football. Its also having it easier.
SG Will end when Melissa want the show to end. Its delayed viewing is one of the Best right now too. Putting it on 3-4 place only behind Flash, Batwoman and sometimes Riverdale. SPN and Arrow is ending.

Tired of this baseless fear mongering.

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You're certainly permitted to have your opinions, but do provide concrete evidence to the contrary. Do inform us otherwise. Please clear up our faulty findings.

Kindly provide on-demand stats and delayed viewing stats (the L+3's and L+7's are in for eps.1, 2, 3) and any other relevant information to back your position. If you are from the network or the show, you should have these available at your fingertips. If you aren't, then your conjecture is equally speculative and potentially more baseless than ours.

In fairness, you might not like this thread, and that's fine. If so, please move on to something else.

Season 4 was a train wreck (saved only by Melissa and Jon Cryer's performances) and Season 5, thus far, hasn't fared any better. The show so far in S5 has been fed to the wolves. 900k and less viewers, and dropping weekly isn't a very good omen. That's straight to Netflix / HBO territory.

And, yes, to agree with your position that the show will go on as long as Melissa wants it to. It's the CW's way of keeping stale, unpalatable products on the shelf by fiddling with the numbers. Both Arrow and the Flash are past their Best By dates by at least two to three seasons each (only being saved by COIE). LOT is virtually unwatchable, and Batwoman is struggling hard to attract viewers (especially among the "shipper" crowds) despite being the CW's new "Golden Girl" show.

Regardless of the night the shows are airing, there is a profound waning interest across the general viewership board in them. That's a bankable truism.

Good thing overnights don't matter.

Batwoman seems to have stabilized for the moment, but Supergirl dropped again.

I'm wondering if there is less shared audience between the two than was presumed. They are very different in tone.

Side note: If CW releases streaming data for its app, I remain unaware of it. That would provide a more complete picture.

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Don't expect them to do that. That would be violating trade secrets and actually be more indicative of how things are really going.

So, thus far, Season 5 live viewership has declined in comparison to Season 4 and prior (as have other shows), but might be saved by the on-demand and delayed viewings. Maybe yes, maybe no. Once COIE is done in early January, it will be telling if the show is renewed for S6 (and, more importantly, when).

All that is for certain at this point is that the show's main story arc has not resonated with the viewers the way they've (the showrunners and writers) anticipated. Cobble that together with the other factors (the new, but already hashed out, changes for S5) and it appears that the show is falling out of favour with various key demographics. The under 35 crowd isn't interested in the show and the over 35 crowd is frustrated and upset by the changes. So far, in my books, they're batting 1000% (as in; big swings, big misses).

Methinks, a large but long overdue shakeup is in the offing, and the smartest person in the entire room (including the actors, crews, showrunners, EPs, WB and CW brass, etc.) is the actor who will be departing come mid-season.

Just my two cents.

Good thing overnights don't matter.

Batwoman seems to have stabilized for the moment, but Supergirl dropped again.

I'm wondering if there is less shared audience between the two than was presumed. They are very different in tone.

Side note: If CW releases streaming data for its app, I remain unaware of it. That would provide a more complete picture.

@LibertyPrime:

Love the use of Statler and Waldorf! Perfect hecklers!

I tried Batwoman. The acoustics were less than ideal. I have perfectly good hearing, and could not understand a fair part of what the characters were saying. They mumbled. The flashbacks led to a more complex pot; I would have run Batwoman later in the evening than Supergirl.

Supergirl is appreciably better this year than last year. The soap opera segments of the plot appear to be fading. The heroine rescues the lesser characters instead of the other way around. This year the music has not been so loud as to drown out the conversation.

Yep. So far so good.

I tried Batwoman. The acoustics were less than ideal. I have perfectly good hearing, and could not understand a fair part of what the characters were saying. They mumbled. The flashbacks led to a more complex pot; I would have run Batwoman later in the evening than Supergirl.

Supergirl is appreciably better this year than last year. The soap opera segments of the plot appear to be fading. The heroine rescues the lesser characters instead of the other way around. This year the music has not been so loud as to drown out the conversation.

The day the CW axes a show after one season, particularly from the DC universe, that will be the day. Quality is irrelevant.

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That is accurate. According to unconfirmed reports (i.e. rumours), BW may get renewed even this early in the game despite its early season ratings and that would logically (by the CW's standards) apply to other shows as well.

The bottom line is this: Ratings don't matter anymore, it's about advertising dollars, streaming deals, HBO subscriptions, Internet clicks and product/brand placement. In the age of the Disneyfication of superheroes, it's about keeping up with the Joneses. If one studio does it, they all do it. The DC shows could each have a viewership of 200,000 (in the US alone) and a near-flatline zero rating and still get renewed. If the product doesn't fare well on traditional TV, then they simply move it to another platform and have the public pay for it.

As for show quality, that is subjective, but your take is accurate. Berlanti Productions loves to churn out product like McDonald's hamburgers and the actual dubious quality and questionable content will continue to be digested by the gullible public until they grow weary (and apparently, they never will) of it and move onto other things. As P.T. Barnum is indirectly attributed to have said (although historically inaccurate): "There's a sucker born every minute."

The day the CW axes a show after one season, particularly from the DC universe, that will be the day. Quality is irrelevant.

Those writing these articles really need to educate themselves. The reason CW shows get renewed even though their live ratings are not the best is because...the top 4 scripted dramas on broadcast TV in the male/ female viewership split thus far this season are

1. Flash 58%
2. Supergirl 57%
3. Batwoman 56%
4. Black Lightning 50%

All CW shows to be Captain Obvious.

These shows appeal to the hardest demo to grab, the men under 50 demo.

That would be me...with about 5 years left to go in the top of the demo. But I am no fan of Batwoman and Black Lightning.

THAT is what the AD people buying time on the CW are looking for, THAT is what counts. So seriously, using articles like this to back up an opinion is weak.

What it comes down to is disposable income and who has the most of it.

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100% agree. Actually, the demo they're actively going for is the 18-34 and as time and stats have proven, the numbers in this bracket just aren't there. whether this is a good or bad thing is up for interpretation. Ironically, the age bracket that's keeping it going is the above-35 male crowd. True, binge / delayed watching is a thing, but it doesn't generate big advertising dollars.

Now, one can safely say that since viewing choices have shifted drastically in the last five years, it is likely that this show and others in the CW stable should really be Netflix or on-demand products only since traditional TV viewing (other than for live sports, news, game shows and sit-coms) is going the way of the dodo.

Given the amount of shows Berlanti has created and continues to push and the various platforms now available, it is likely that a shift to streaming subscription-only services is inevitable. Say bye-bye to traditional TV in about five years.

Those writing these articles really need to educate themselves. The reason CW shows get renewed even though their live ratings are not the best is because...the top 4 scripted dramas on broadcast TV in the male/ female viewership split thus far this season are

1. Flash 58%
2. Supergirl 57%
3. Batwoman 56%
4. Black Lightning 50%

All CW shows to be Captain Obvious.

These shows appeal to the hardest demo to grab, the men under 50 demo.

That would be me...with about 5 years left to go in the top of the demo. But I am no fan of Batwoman and Black Lightning.

THAT is what the AD people buying time on the CW are looking for, THAT is what counts. So seriously, using articles like this to back up an opinion is weak.

What it comes down to is disposable income and who has the most of it.

Those writing these articles really need to educate themselves. The reason CW shows get renewed even though their live ratings are not the best is because...the top 4 scripted dramas on broadcast TV in the male/ female viewership split thus far this season are

1. Flash 58%
2. Supergirl 57%
3. Batwoman 56%
4. Black Lightning 50%

These shows appeal to the hardest demo to grab, the men under 50 demo.

THAT is what the AD people buying time on the CW are looking for, THAT is what counts. So seriously, using articles like this to back up an opinion is weak.