Everything Waco Thread

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

Ew *shivers*

Can you EVEN picture one of our students at that age going through that? *shivers again*

I guess because I teach AP Human Geography and World Geography going on 28 years....and one of the things we have to do is to step outside of ourselves, our mores, our values, our perspective, our environment and look at all things in as much of an unbiased manner as we can in order to study other religions, cultures etc...that it is very easy for me to understand how this could happen when you have a group of people, that are following a book that was written in a different time period, different land, etc and basing their entire existence on it it would look very strange to us. Yet if we asked people in the Middle East, who live under Sharia Law, who follow ancient texts so closely as to live their lives to the most specific detail they would probably totally understand these people and how they live their lives. It's not really a matter of right or wrong.....if I look at it totally from my perspective, it is ALL KINDS OF WRONG. But, I don't tend to do that....it's just habit.

So though it may seem cold to some, it is a different religion, different culture, different way of life...that is pretty much how I look at it.

Now, where the deviance of it really comes in is when Koresh begins to make up new rules of their lives, and what were his motives behind that.....I look at the ATF, FBI, etc in much the same way....in their decision making were they changing the rules to suit what their motives were....I think in both cases...yes, and that is why you began to see people questioning Koresh, and questioning the ATF, FBI etc....and their actions.

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

Ew *shivers*

Can you EVEN picture one of our students at that age going through that? *shivers again*

Perry Jones, Rachel's father, was David Koresh's chief errand runner who died in the Feb. 28 shootout at the compound with agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. This was prior to the fire that killed Rachel along with many other Branch Davidians in April.

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

From what I've read, wasn't her father a member of the group and was actually in the compound when it was raided and burned?

I think several of her family was in the compound. I believe a sister and possibly an aunt either were not there at the time, or were some of the few that made it out. I believe an aunt left before she had to become one of Koresh's wives, she left her husband and children there. She had very little good to say about Koresh.....

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

From what I've read, wasn't her father a member of the group and was actually in the compound when it was raided and burned?

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

Yes, crazy enough, it's legal in many states to marry at the age of 14. So, basically, the way the law works is that if you're 14 and don't marry the person, it's statutory rape but, if you marry him/her with parent permission of course, then everything is okey dokey. You'd be surprised the number of laws written in the 19th Century that are still on the books in many states. But, just because the archaic law still exists, doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.

Consent by a 14 year old has to be taken with a grain of salt. After all, this is someone who is, at the most, a 9th grader, depending on birthday. A teen who is most likely still having problems managing homework, a locker, what they're going to wear and how they're going to find transportation to the out of town ballgame. Thinking that they are mature enough to be in a relationship with an adult and have rational thought and emotional capability to decide what's best in terms of a lifetime commitment is absolutely absurd.

As far as the FBI and other enforcement agencies, they're no different than any other occupation. There are bad teachers but, that does't mean that an entire school is incompetent. Same for doctors, counselors, mechanics, etc. There have been and still are some individuals within the law enforcement organization that are unscrupulous but, that doesn't make the entire organization corrupt.

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

"This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies."

Rachel... Married at age 14 after having left home so quickly, she was still in her pajamas. Statutory rape. Case closed on that one. Couple that with then having young children in the same "home" as a proven child rapist, under unusual circumstances? Why so angry?

Still doesn't make him a pedophile also Rachel was complicit.

Actually, that's the exact definition of a pedaphile. It's the exact reason Warren Jeffs is currently sitting in jail, as he should be. Complicit? She was 14. I don't think I can say anything more there that hasn't already been proven.

However, the part about the FBI's actions... I will probably have to agree with you, but withhold further judgement till I watch. I have a feeling it'll fit with my current thoughts on the FBI--parts of the upper echelon might be corrupt, but rank and file members are patriots doing a selfless job protecting this country.

At the time this all started, I was fresh out of college beginning my teaching career. Teaching which was my first choice was put on the back burner because I thought that I wanted to be an FBI Forensics specialist instead, got my Criminal Justice degree and was ready to go, until I realized how I hate guns, and realized just how much of a pacifist I really am....I quickly got my teaching certificate and found my true calling....HOWEVER, the FBI agent inside has never died....LMAO......and I watched ever single bit of news coverage, documentaries, read every article I could on the Ruby Ridge incident, the Waco incident and the Oklahoma bombing....The family at Ruby Ridge were most definitely were radical white supremacists no doubt....and definitely need to have eyes on their comings and goings....but was it to the point of the FBI going in with such force to get them out? I don't think so...

As far as Waco, I think the most recent FLDS and Jeffs situation, I think shows that the FBI learned from the Waco incident and followed their leads and did what they needed to do in the right pace and manner. At Waco, the entire time I was watching all of that happen I was thinking, "What is going on there, does it rise to the point of this kind of force?" And I was never able to answer that as yes. I remember talking about with friends from school that have gone on to be Texas Rangers, ATF officers, DPS, FBI as well as Sherrif and local police departments around Texas. 100% shook their heads at what was happening, we all just kept thinking....maybe they had information that we just did not know about....I have yet to see or hear anything since then that said yes, they had the kind of information that merited going in with that kind of force. And I'm talking about the first push in where the ATF agents were hurt and killed as well....tanks, etc....???? I just don't see that...

Did they (people in the compound) commit suicide, start the fires, etc....???? Probably....but were they pushed to that cliff with what was going on outside.

I always think about this man.... http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Authorities-ignore-fugitive-holed-up-on-Texas-1693380.php he has been holed up on his land for quite awhile, they keep an eye on him and his family, but he lives off the grid out there. One of these days I'm sure they will have their chance to take him in.....

I just have a feeling that if they had just chilled and kept a watchful eye on David Koresh to the point where they would not be able to leave their land easily, maybe law enforcement build a relationship with them to allow CPS in just to make sure the children were ok, and build their case, they could have ended this differently? That question will never be answered....

I also think they could have talked to many of the families there at different points, building relationships with them outside of the compound. They could have gotten more information on the children....

AND, had they gone after David Koresh only, as zeroed in on him as they were Jeffs, I think they could have gotten him...

I just think it is sad for the people like Rachel who only knew of that life were never given a chance to realize there was so much more out there for them...It would have been great if those that knew of nothing else like Warren Jeffs daughter could have been given the chance that she has had to leave that life behind and move on...

"This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies."

Rachel... Married at age 14 after having left home so quickly, she was still in her pajamas. Statutory rape. Case closed on that one. Couple that with then having young children in the same "home" as a proven child rapist, under unusual circumstances? Why so angry?

Still doesn't make him a pedophile also Rachel was complicit.

Actually, that's the exact definition of a pedaphile. It's the exact reason Warren Jeffs is currently sitting in jail, as he should be. Complicit? She was 14. I don't think I can say anything more there that hasn't already been proven.

However, the part about the FBI's actions... I will probably have to agree with you, but withhold further judgement till I watch. I have a feeling it'll fit with my current thoughts on the FBI--parts of the upper echelon might be corrupt, but rank and file members are patriots doing a selfless job protecting this country.

"This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies."

Rachel... Married at age 14 after having left home so quickly, she was still in her pajamas. Statutory rape. Case closed on that one. Couple that with then having young children in the same "home" as a proven child rapist, under unusual circumstances? Why so angry?

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Yes, I'm not condoning what they did, just explaining how easy it is to become manipulated into believing or acting in a way that is questionable.

Ive heard so many conflicted stories on that David himself strongly denied it as did other Davidians other than the 4 who left [their a story in itslef]In fact one of the accusers admitted he lied about it coz he wanted David's position and thought of himself as a Phrophet

I don't know that David would be a very reliable source. But, based on the ages of the young women and the children, if nothing else, there had to be child abuse and/or statutory rape involved. It would be very easy to prove one way or another if they had the DNA of the children involved.

This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies

The fact that Rachel married at 14 and her sister had a child at 14 would be enough to be concerning to child and protective services. (There's a certain judge who just ran for the US Senate that has the distinction of being labeled a child molester for "dating" a 14 year old, rightfully so in my mind). Added to that, the compound had no running water with a large number of people living there. So, those factors alone would be all that they would need to send child services in to do a welfare check.

I think I heard or read somewhere that CPS had made visits....I could be wrong.

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Yes, I'm not condoning what they did, just explaining how easy it is to become manipulated into believing or acting in a way that is questionable.

Ive heard so many conflicted stories on that David himself strongly denied it as did other Davidians other than the 4 who left [their a story in itslef]In fact one of the accusers admitted he lied about it coz he wanted David's position and thought of himself as a Phrophet

I don't know that David would be a very reliable source. But, based on the ages of the young women and the children, if nothing else, there had to be child abuse and/or statutory rape involved. It would be very easy to prove one way or another if they had the DNA of the children involved.

This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies

The fact that Rachel married at 14 and her sister had a child at 14 would be enough to be concerning to child and protective services. (There's a certain judge who just ran for the US Senate that has the distinction of being labeled a child molester for "dating" a 14 year old, rightfully so in my mind). Added to that, the compound had no running water with a large number of people living there. So, those factors alone would be all that they would need to send child services in to do a welfare check.

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

Yes, I'm not condoning what they did, just explaining how easy it is to become manipulated into believing or acting in a way that is questionable.

Ive heard so many conflicted stories on that David himself strongly denied it as did other Davidians other than the 4 who left [their a story in itslef]In fact one of the accusers admitted he lied about it coz he wanted David's position and thought of himself as a Phrophet

I don't know that David would be a very reliable source. But, based on the ages of the young women and the children, if nothing else, there had to be child abuse and/or statutory rape involved. It would be very easy to prove one way or another if they had the DNA of the children involved.

Most of what you see in the movie as far as what was happening INSIDE the compound before and during the seige is from Tibodeaux's book....he is the young guy that Koresh brought in...the drummer from the bar.

The married men allowed their wives to marry Koresh, and agreed to remain celibate while HE got to procreate with their said wives. There was clearly somethng off in their thought process.

If anything, he committed statutory rape--Rachel leaving in the night in her pajamas, "marrying" him at age 14.

I will say, this first episode did a really good job making you want to ummm... firmly express yourself to the tv, "What is wrong with you people?" lol They weren't forced to stay, didn't suffer from Stockholm Syndrom, and didn't appear to be socially inept. On the contrary, some were once rich, well traveled, educated (one from Harvard, another with a doctorate, etc etc).

I know that in one of the interviews with Melissa and the Waco crew, they mention that these people were everyday citizens, not crazed lunatics like we were led to believe. I think that Koresh's opening sermon gives a good insight into why this type of situation happens. I can't remember what he said exactly but, he pressed upon the point that even with everything those people had it wasn't enough. They still weren't happy. They were missing something in their lives, answers, meaning, companionship, what have you and they found those items by being part of a group of people who were searching for a similar thing. And from what we've seen so far, the actual members of the group seemed like good, well-meaning individuals with a common belief. Once they found what they were looking for, it didn't take much for someone as charismatic as Koresh to step in and manipulate the situation. It's really not that uncommon.

I thought that, too, about them including Ruby Ridge. Good background 411. They actually alluded last night that IT was the reason they jumped on Mt. Carmel the way they did. Remember how one of the agents, after realizing the Branch Davidians had amassed a huge arsenal, said they would have things ready to go "next week," but slime ball FBI head said, "No...have it ready by tonight?" I think they rushed the whole thing and ended up being overly heavy handed, I think, as a direct reaction to the failures of Ruby Ridge.

I thought this was a really interesting start to the series. I liked that they gave us the scenes with Ruby Ridge as a precursor to Waco to help provide some background that, I'm guessing, will be an influence in the actions the FBI, ATF and the Waco residents going forward. I can't remember all of the details of Waco and I had actually forgotten about Ruby Ridge until they showed it. But, I can recall an atmosphere that depicted the Waco residents as just plain crazy. So, seeing the events at Ruby Ridge and the questioning of the FBI behavior by the FBI negotiator is a real eye-opener for me.

I was doing a little more reading on Koresh and the Branch Davidians and the way the two entities merged and developed was really fascinating. I would highly recommend reading on it, if one has the time and inclination to do so.

Him, too. But the slime ball comment was more directed to Koresh "accepting" the "burden" to take on the roll of sole reproducer. Lol

Poor guy. Such a sacrifice on his part